Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children • Hacker News Board

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#71

Post by aspenmartin » Wed, Jul 01, 2026, 9:39 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #70

aspenmartin wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

by your username I assume you are yourself one of the droids you're looking for lol. But also I think people forget: this is not cut and dried. This is not simple. This is not just "these companies are evil and should be stopped". It is: there is a market pressure to do these things. "I enjoy the product and use it a lot" and "I am addicted" is blurry and market pressure is not going to recognize that limit because i…

> This is not just "these companies are evil and should be stopped". It is: there is a market pressure to do these things. They are evil tho, on top of there being market pressure. Their executives are incredibly comfortable with causing large scale harm, even when they are NOT forced at all. > If you cap advertising dollars, you cap advertising effectiveness. And that is OK. Not just ok, but actually good. Their eff…

> Marketing is just an arms race. It is ok to limit how manipulative and harmful it is and force companies to compete on something else.

I agree with this, and I think you are right about a lot of this being really just not market-relevant factors that are driving a lot of the downsides here. All of these should be regulated, and even the ones where regulating will have impact to markets and consumers.

And I agree -- effective advertising targeting necessitates "reward hacking" in that I can get you to buy something if I prey on your insecurities or otherwise manipulate you in a way that goes beyond "oh I know what watwut would love as a birthday gift".

But you really should be aware that effective advertising really does disproportionately benefit smaller businesses and this is generally a Good Thing. Really my only point here is that there is a baby in this bathwater and we should be careful.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#72

Post by watwut » Wed, Jul 01, 2026, 9:46 PM UTC

ipdashc wrote: post #63

mikae1 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's funny is that I don't find fediverse apps like Mastodon to be less addictive. It could be because they (and the ActivityPub protocol) was modelled after commercial counterparts or that information foraging in an endless forest of data in itself is attractive to the human psyche.

Yeah, this doesn't get brought up often enough. Honestly, while I don't necessarily disagree with it, I think a lot of the "social media is evil because it was engineered by psychologists to be addictive!" narrative is complete cope. Cope, specifically, because we don't want to accept the fact that this kind of stuff is addictive on its own, that we are our own worst enemy; bot armies, evil corpos, and engagement alg…

Facebook pitched itself to China on the grounds that it will help China to survey and coerce toward social harmony better.

Facebook targetted teens who posted self deprecating comments for beauty and weight loss products ads.

It was no random that facebook became a hotbed for conspiracy theories, misinformation and lies. That part is result of their own conscious choices. They made it that way, because they wanted it to be that way.

Facebook moderation favored pro-genocide side of the politics in maynmar. Its own decisions made it instrumental to the events. The issues were solvable and visible, Facebook was the primary gatekeeper there due to contracts it had, but Facebook refused to do anything even after it was crear what went on.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#73

Post by watwut » Wed, Jul 01, 2026, 9:49 PM UTC

okuntilnow wrote: post #66

consumer451 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, here is the canonical source of the story: https://www.crikey.com.au/2025/12/12/pro-teen-social-media-b... I do know that many places in the world were worried about what TikTok and Insta were doing to their kids' minds, prior to that push. However, do you find fault in the Crikey story? It appears that the AUS domino was the first to fall in the chain after FINCH's major push.

I'm sure that it's right! I've no doubt gambling advertising firms will have been happy to see it over the line to get them off the hook. Hard to argue for a ban on gambling ads if kids (allegedly) can't see them anyway.

I am for ban on gambling ads, full stop. It is easy to argue for it. It is easy to say it.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#74

Post by Bratmon » Wed, Jul 01, 2026, 10:00 PM UTC

nixon_why69 wrote: post #27

Bratmon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's literally the opposite of self-regulation.

Not quite the opposite, it still outsourced the administrative burden. They avoided the hassle of boarding every ship and inspecting the cargo with a random threat. One could even call it "properly incentivized self-regulation".

I'm genuinely curious how you imagine this system working without a government bureaucracy keeping track of the values of all cargos and regularly inspecting ships to verify the accuracy of their manifests.

What stops ships from reporting something like "Wheat - 25 guilders per ton" when they're actually carrying diamonds?

It doesn't even solve the "It's hard for the bureaucracy to know how much stuff is worth" problem- The government still needs to know enough to decide whether or not to call BS on "Caribbean Grey Ambergris- 300 guilders per pound"

This system does have the advantage that it allows the government to make small fines without the legal burden of establishing that the merchant was lying, but that's in no way the same as self-regulation.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#75

Post by ipdashc » Wed, Jul 01, 2026, 10:05 PM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #65

ipdashc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this doesn't get brought up often enough. Honestly, while I don't necessarily disagree with it, I think a lot of the "social media is evil because it was engineered by psychologists to be addictive!" narrative is complete cope. Cope, specifically, because we don't want to accept the fact that this kind of stuff is addictive on its own, that we are our own worst enemy; bot armies, evil corpos, and engagement alg…

This is exhibiting a lot of software guy detached from reality. The reality is the teen girls kill themselves for being "too fat" because bullying engagement makes money for big commercial social media sites. Somebody else on this thread claimed to be somewhere addicted to Mastodon sites. In principle they're comparable. In the real world, no high school kids are going to harm themselves over an argument about Mint v…

> ... because bullying engagement makes money for big commercial social media sites

Teenagers have been bullying each other for literal millennia. Kids got bullied on IRC and chatrooms; they get bullied today on Roblox, on SMS group chats. None of these have engagement algorithms.

Again, the corporations sure aren't helping, but we need to confront the fact that a large chunk of this is human nature. I'd like a better Internet landscape but switching from Facebook to Mastodon or whatever, while a good step, isn't going to cure all ills. A lot of people in these threads act like every Internet toxicity symptom ever arose because of evil corporations.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#76

Post by ipdashc » Wed, Jul 01, 2026, 10:08 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #72

ipdashc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this doesn't get brought up often enough. Honestly, while I don't necessarily disagree with it, I think a lot of the "social media is evil because it was engineered by psychologists to be addictive!" narrative is complete cope. Cope, specifically, because we don't want to accept the fact that this kind of stuff is addictive on its own, that we are our own worst enemy; bot armies, evil corpos, and engagement alg…

Facebook pitched itself to China on the grounds that it will help China to survey and coerce toward social harmony better. Facebook targetted teens who posted self deprecating comments for beauty and weight loss products ads. It was no random that facebook became a hotbed for conspiracy theories, misinformation and lies. That part is result of their own conscious choices. They made it that way, because they wanted it…

Sure, nobody's saying Facebook is the good guys, but this thread is about addiction. My point is that a lot of Internet addiction happens just fine on its own. As bad as Facebook is, it would still happen without them, including if they were regulated in whatever fashion.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#77

Post by sdwr » Wed, Jul 01, 2026, 10:26 PM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #65

ipdashc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this doesn't get brought up often enough. Honestly, while I don't necessarily disagree with it, I think a lot of the "social media is evil because it was engineered by psychologists to be addictive!" narrative is complete cope. Cope, specifically, because we don't want to accept the fact that this kind of stuff is addictive on its own, that we are our own worst enemy; bot armies, evil corpos, and engagement alg…

This is exhibiting a lot of software guy detached from reality. The reality is the teen girls kill themselves for being "too fat" because bullying engagement makes money for big commercial social media sites. Somebody else on this thread claimed to be somewhere addicted to Mastodon sites. In principle they're comparable. In the real world, no high school kids are going to harm themselves over an argument about Mint v…

Small social sites are just as dangerous in another way, as vessels for a toxic monoculture. Pro-anorexia forums, political radicalization, there was even a famous one that fetishized infecting people with HIV.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#78

Post by ipdashc » Wed, Jul 01, 2026, 10:40 PM UTC

sdwr wrote: post #77

Zigurd wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exhibiting a lot of software guy detached from reality. The reality is the teen girls kill themselves for being "too fat" because bullying engagement makes money for big commercial social media sites. Somebody else on this thread claimed to be somewhere addicted to Mastodon sites. In principle they're comparable. In the real world, no high school kids are going to harm themselves over an argument about Mint v…

Small social sites are just as dangerous in another way, as vessels for a toxic monoculture. Pro-anorexia forums, political radicalization, there was even a famous one that fetishized infecting people with HIV.

To add, a lot of the most infamous Internet subcultures, with the worst effects on the "real world" (think incels, /pol/ types, mass shooters) have their own forums or hang out on places like 4chan/8chan. Where there's no big tech corporation or finely tuned engagement algorithm. Just broken people finding a place where they can reinforce each other.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#79

Post by cyanydeez » Wed, Jul 01, 2026, 11:17 PM UTC

snickerbockers wrote: post #48

cyanydeez wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MKULTRA was about using _drugs_ to alter state. It has literally zero other than pop culture memes and conspiracy theory in relation to what facebook is doing. The facts are basically: Facebook's own researchers and independent researchers presented real harms caused by Facebook's algorithms, and they fired them, ignored them and took the datasets away and continued doing as they want. You don't need to go to any con…

Nice fedslop but teddy k was never given any drugs. Im glad you agree with me on the stuff about Facebook being evil. im not sure i understand why you said this was not a conspiracy immediately after describing a series of events perpetrated by facebook which could easily form the basis of a criminal conspiracy prosecution.

associating a well researched and backed claim about facebooks harm with a poorly done research about drugs and mind control by intelligence services since discredited and made apop culture meme does not aid in taking down facebook. its a bizarre association that looks purely like grafting the two as things only nutjobs would consider.

in reality, facebooks effects on its users has at least a decade of academic and independent research both commissioned by facebook and in spite of them. it is not a conspiracy theory about mindcontrol.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#80

Post by nixon_why69 » Thu, Jul 02, 2026, 12:59 AM UTC

Bratmon wrote: post #74

nixon_why69 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite the opposite, it still outsourced the administrative burden. They avoided the hassle of boarding every ship and inspecting the cargo with a random threat. One could even call it "properly incentivized self-regulation".

I'm genuinely curious how you imagine this system working without a government bureaucracy keeping track of the values of all cargos and regularly inspecting ships to verify the accuracy of their manifests. What stops ships from reporting something like "Wheat - 25 guilders per ton" when they're actually carrying diamonds? It doesn't even solve the "It's hard for the bureaucracy to know how much stuff is worth" probl…

The story is from the 15-1600s. I imagine it working like things generally worked in that time period which is with quite a lot less bureaucracy than today.

The cleverness of the idea is it leverages fear to prevent ships from declaring "wheat" for their ship full of diamonds. You can make some sporadic, random inspections, just enough to keep the fear up, instead of having to inspect every single ship.