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Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

wangcong.org

481–490 of 599 posts

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#481
post #479
post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully submit that your neat categorization of interactions into those three profiles may reflect a gap in your understanding of others. Namely, that your definition of what makes a "good faith" conversation may not be the only one, nor the only correct one. The vibe that people care about - that's the unspoken channel in any conversation. Physical, emotional, thoughts that don't get said. Perhaps to the one…

People are allowed to care about what they care about, I think you're right there. My only point is that, for me, if I'm discussing a subject where I'm exasperated and am complaining in a questioning way, say (to take a random example): > Why are my local supervisors are advocating and incentivizing return to office!?! Having to go into the office is pointless and terrible! Suppose this policy seems insane to me, and…

I’m someone who operates in both modes on the receiving end, so I think I can answer some of this.

I’m going to come at it from a slightly different angle, but I think the spirit will get there.

Sometimes, I’ve been working on troubleshooting my PC for hours already. I’m tired. I’m angry because I’ve spent all that mental capital, etc., so I come to friends to rant a little bit.

And then they start offering solutions. Solutions I’ve definitely already tried. Solutions that don’t work for a multitude of reasons that I’m not expressing because, again, I already spent hours on this. But they keep blasting me with troubleshooting tips and “have you tried this yet?” and “what’s the text say in this folder?”

But I’m already at my wits end, and now they’re wanting me to keep pushing, to do more labor to solve the problem. A problem I don’t want solved. I just want someone to hear my struggle and go “that sucks man, let’s have a beer”.

For me, sometimes it’s “I’m out of spoons”, sometimes it’s “I just want someone to see *my* struggle, too”. Sometimes I want to be validated for my current plight.

And when I’m reached with solutions and/or explaining, at the wrong time, sometimes that can be very invalidating.

In circumstances like this, when I’m on the end where I want to be the fixer or the explainer, I’ll even ask, “do you want fixer me? Or just company?”

You don’t have to lie and say XYZ are bad for that; but you can instead say something like “oh yeah that sucks when you’re already doing all this elsewhere”. Because it does suck. Even if it has a logical reason, it does suck.

Edit: Okay, I want to add a bit more. When someone is stressed or exhausted to a high enough degree, they literally cannot range in new information, no matter how well-meaning. So sometimes the commiseration and/or presence without offering solutions is just one of many steps to help them relax enough that they can even *hear* the new thought or suggestion. As well-meaning as advice or a reality check can be in those situations, until the stress is reduced, it’s literally falling on deaf ears.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#482
post #454

This article really resonates with me. During college and graduate school studying philosophy, picking apart someone's argument and pointing out the esoteric and nuanced ways which made it wrong was celebrated. The general attitude in my cohort was: "I want to be wrong, because when I realize I'm wrong, I've become smarter." This was probably the most intellectually fulfilling period of my life. (Note here: some of t…

I've come to view a lot of these things as questions of a kind of conversational (/computational) tractability. People have limited time and so most discussions are subject to numerous constraints.

People communicate the main thing they want to say and hope the decompression algorithm on the other side sorts the rest out. Most of the time it's very lossy or just broken. But satisfices over the alternative.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#483
post #454

This article really resonates with me. During college and graduate school studying philosophy, picking apart someone's argument and pointing out the esoteric and nuanced ways which made it wrong was celebrated. The general attitude in my cohort was: "I want to be wrong, because when I realize I'm wrong, I've become smarter." This was probably the most intellectually fulfilling period of my life. (Note here: some of t…

We can talk to each other like adults, the key is understanding what the goal of any given conversation is. Truth-seeking is just one possible goal among many.

Part of becoming an adult is learning how little most people care about that particular goal, and how big the buffet of alternatives is: creating shared meaning, understanding each other's values, building trust, giving/receiving emotional support, processing grief, etc. (Think of this as an upfront taxonomic exercise, followed by lots of in situ calibration exercises.)

Even for something like "decision making", which, naively, one might assume should be grounded in facts, a lot of the "facts" wind up being fuzzy and subjective. This is baked into the social fabric.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#484

I came up an academic philosopher, before I switched careers. When you're surrounded by academic philosophers, you become very used to argument as a default form of interaction. People expect that they'll be asked to give reasons for their assertions, and that those reasons will be scrutinized and challenged. And it's great! You can learn a ton from having these arguments with smart, engaged interlocutors. It's not t…

There are so many reasons for this. Most people have a real job and want to meet friends in the evening, not challengers. Debating someone with your rules in mind that the others didn't learn also feels like slapping someone who's unarmed. It's even less fun on the receiving end. In jobs, there's now something riding on arguments; In academia you just debate the death sentence or the draft and call it a day. At work if you accept this kid of argument and lose, are you expected to spend the next months implementing someone's else's idea you don't like? In any case, most arguments are futile, since the position you're arguing for is kind of arbitrary and pulling arguments out of a hat doesn't really improve them.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lincoln famously wrote and never mailed letters as a way to vent emotions.

It's so bizarre to me that this works and I can't say I believed it until I tried. I shouldn't be surprised that it's so easy to trick our brains. I assume the phenomenon where I write 90% of an email, save it as a draft to finish later, never remember to finish it, get asked about it and have irrefutable certainty I sent it, then finally discover it as an unfinished draft is a facet of the same trickery. Stupid brai…

Journaling sounded stupid to me, until I tried it; and then the whole “do you really think that?”, “is that true?”, “what about this?” and “why are you lying to a sheet of paper?” started happening and I was like, “oh I get it.”

Come to think of it, that’s a major reason why fully agentic coding doesn’t resonate with me and/or feels like I’m not growing or learning. I’m short-circuiting the “journaling” step where I mentally attack my own thoughts and assumptions.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#486
> …most people don’t learn from advice at all. They learn from consequences. They have to touch the stove themselves. Words bounce off; pain sticks.

It hurts to see your child in this position but it (often is) a quick learning, and we hope that it is no more than a 1st degree burn.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#487
post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are allowed to care about what they care about, I think you're right there. My only point is that, for me, if I'm discussing a subject where I'm exasperated and am complaining in a questioning way, say (to take a random example): > Why are my local supervisors are advocating and incentivizing return to office!?! Having to go into the office is pointless and terrible! Suppose this policy seems insane to me, and…

I’m someone who operates in both modes on the receiving end, so I think I can answer some of this. I’m going to come at it from a slightly different angle, but I think the spirit will get there. Sometimes, I’ve been working on troubleshooting my PC for hours already. I’m tired. I’m angry because I’ve spent all that mental capital, etc., so I come to friends to rant a little bit. And then they start offering solutions…

I mean, I understand what you're saying. I guess the main way I can explain it isn't in any idealized case, but in the transitional case.

I completely agree that people might not be looking for a solution in a discussion. My point is that transitioning from a place where there are plenty of people, having plenty of discussions, and ideas flow freely back and forth is normal and welcome. And then moving to a place where people have plenty of discussions, but more often than not, ideas flowing back and forth are treated with outright hostility...

I mean, for me, it was very obviously a completely jarring transition. It's not that there are times when solutions aren't welcome. It's that the vast majority of the time, with the vast majority of people, alternative paradigms aren't welcome.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#488

> So I’ve drawn a line. I only discuss pros and cons with smart people; I don’t argue right and wrong with ego-driven ones. With the first kind, a disagreement is a joint search for the better answer, and both of us walk away sharper. With the second, there is no answer being sought, only a self to be defended. Knowing which conversation you’re in is half the battle. The other half is having the discipline to walk aw…

[deleted]

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#489
post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m someone who operates in both modes on the receiving end, so I think I can answer some of this. I’m going to come at it from a slightly different angle, but I think the spirit will get there. Sometimes, I’ve been working on troubleshooting my PC for hours already. I’m tired. I’m angry because I’ve spent all that mental capital, etc., so I come to friends to rant a little bit. And then they start offering solutions…

I mean, I understand what you're saying. I guess the main way I can explain it isn't in any idealized case, but in the transitional case. I completely agree that people might not be looking for a solution in a discussion. My point is that transitioning from a place where there are plenty of people, having plenty of discussions, and ideas flow freely back and forth is normal and welcome. And then moving to a place whe…

I suppose I’ve found myself lucky when many* people are open to new and even contradictory ideas, one on one**, and when they feel respected and calm.

* but definitely not all

** because there’s no more ego, status nor hierarchy to defend.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#490
post #25

One of the most cancerous developments of our generation is a bunch of people isolating themselves from everyone else, and having their perfect unchallenged audience captured views spread far and wide. On a more personal level, the reason people are frustrated about arguing is because they can’t fully articulate their reasons. They don’t realize it themselves. The older you get and the more practiced you get at argui…

This is indeed part of the problem. Life today is just too complicated. Take a simple topic like wind turbines: there is so so much to truly understand about materials, net lifetime carbon offset, environmental issues, recycling, capacity, placement, etc. that is is all but impossible to become a true subject matter expert on this one issue alone. Even gaining a cursory understanding of the issues at hand requires ma…

Since it seems like you may have research this, how do you feel about wind turbines?
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