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Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

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Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#461

Post by pojzon »

einpoklum wrote: post #223
a4isms wrote: post #60

Here's a simple idea: You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. And three interpretations to consider: 0: The default: That person is irrationally attached to being wrong. Best to walk away, argumentation will be futile, and I have a life to lead. 1: Whoa! Sometimes that person is me. 2: If they didn't reason themselves into it, how did they get into it? What if their position rep…

> 0: The default: That person is irrationally attached to being wrong. Best to walk away, argumentation will be futile, and I have a life to lead. Disagree here, because: * Most of us have an irrational attachment to many of our positions. Arguing may or may not be futile, but if you can't "walk away" from most people (except if you sit at home and do nothing, and maybe not even then). * These people may well be your…

Ever heard of quiet quitting. The momen someone labels you as what you describe - they will do minimum they have to do to interact with you and then move on with their day.

Being hard wired to non logical believes is just not good in this regard.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#462

Post by hakunin »

snarf21 wrote: post #392
hakunin wrote: post #25

One of the most cancerous developments of our generation is a bunch of people isolating themselves from everyone else, and having their perfect unchallenged audience captured views spread far and wide. On a more personal level, the reason people are frustrated about arguing is because they can’t fully articulate their reasons. They don’t realize it themselves. The older you get and the more practiced you get at argui…

This is indeed part of the problem. Life today is just too complicated. Take a simple topic like wind turbines: there is so so much to truly understand about materials, net lifetime carbon offset, environmental issues, recycling, capacity, placement, etc. that is is all but impossible to become a true subject matter expert on this one issue alone. Even gaining a cursory understanding of the issues at hand requires ma…

Yeah. We love the comfort of "getting it", but most of the easy problems have been solved, and we're only left with the hard ones.

People are pleasure-seekers, not truth-seekers. People demand what they can understand and feel good about, even if wrong. There's plenty of supply too. Radical free speech allows anyone to spread lies for huge financial upside, and we don't have any check on this particular type of weapon which is mass-destroying society.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#463

Post by b112 »

toofy wrote: post #438
b112 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, a statement is a position, and this blog is stating his case, which is an argument for truth. So he's still arguing, yet not listening, as it's all one sided now. This isn't actually that unusual, books, newspapers, and more often do one way communication. But as soon as you state a position, you're arguing it.

sometimes a statement is just a statement. not everyone is taking a “position”. sometimes a conversation is just a conversation and not a debate.

Everything you speak, utter, or do is an output your self-centric view of the world. By uttering anything, you are describing yourself in relation to the world.

Your very existence is an argument against chaos. Your very individuality is an argument against other individualities.

By simply existing, you argue your conscious view of the world.

Even silence in response to a comment, statement, or idea espoused around you is in itself an argument.

Waking up in the morning is an argument.

These are all arguments, in that you believe these are the right things to do. You are taking a position merely by moving your arm because you believe that is the thing that you should do.

Every conscious thought you have is an argument, that said thought is correct.

Even your assertion that someone is not arguing, is an argument.

Not arguing is an argument, for it is a position against arguing the point.

The universe is defined by order. Order is defined by conscious determination. Conscious determination is an argument for something being correct.

Our very existence, spewing from the quantum foam, is the result of us having a conscious and argumentative determination that we exist. Cease to argue, and you may merely dissipate into individual atoms!

To exist? Is to argue.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#465

Post by juleiie »

csrse wrote: post #287
juleiie wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly if you change your opinion under effect of some online strangers then it wasn't a strong conviction in the first place

Why? If the argument is well argued, and makes you have better understanding of the issue, does it teally matter who you argue with? Can you only have your deeply held convictions changed from your own sphere? The implications are a bit disheartening in that case.

Nobody thinks this way about actual strong convictions they held like belief in god or abortion or polygamy.

This works only for very narrow set of topics about numbers and data.

Even the same academics that would change their mind quickly about some theory would never actually change their mind on their strong ideological convictions. I know it from real life examples.

Strange that it needs to be articulated so loud and clear.

So I repeat again if you changed your mind under influence of an internet stranger then it wasn’t a very strong conviction.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#468

Post by scoofy »

doubledamio wrote: post #464

I like the author’s viewpoint, but I would have appreciated mentioning that: 1. Truth does not always rely on Boolean logic. Both A and non A can be true at the same time 2. Truth is often relative, so it may change depending on the viewpoint

>1. Truth does not always rely on Boolean logic. Both A and non A can be true at the same time

"Sometimes the opposite of a good idea is another good idea"

https://youtube.com/shorts/0AOumbVT30w

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#469

Post by hackeraccount »

Someone upthread mentioned that arguments can be about convincing the person you're arguing with or convincing the audience which is absolutely true.

I'd suggest that arguments are frequently not about convincing anyone of anything. They become conversations withe people who already agree with you using the person you're arguing against as a foil.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#470

Post by juleiie »

cogman10 wrote: post #284
juleiie wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly if you change your opinion under effect of some online strangers then it wasn't a strong conviction in the first place

The online stranger's argument was convincing because they brought a lot of evidence from research papers to general climatologist opinions which completely debunked a lot of the talking points I'd used (without me exposing those in the conversation). It also made me go back on my own sources and question where they were coming from. Let's just say the anti climate change positions become a lot less convincing when y…

Climate change being anthropogenic is so easy to verify nowadays that when someone has contrary conviction it isn’t because they don’t know the data.

Data won’t help it at all. It’s available two clicks away, there is no shortage of it.

People want to believe otherwise and you will never actually convince anyone on the internet using data on anything in 99% of the cases.

Persuasion is an art and most of the people on the internet have no clue how to manipulate human mind to instil beliefs.

I can give a short rundown on persuasion as non autistic individual actually having those skills:

1. Always say that you understand somebody point of view. Appear interested in what they have to say and respect their beliefs.

2. Intertwine few uncomfortable questions in their point of view, very gently and non argumentative. These are the seeds of doubt.

You are a farmer it’s like gardening and watering a flower. You must be gentle with new sprouts of doubt. Tend to the garden of new beliefs and one day they will bear fruit.

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