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Newly discovered spider builds spring loaded snare to catch ants

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Re: Newly discovered spider builds spring loaded snare to catch ants

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a new discovery for humans.

that's precisely their point

Not seeing the "problem." To humans, it's new. It's a new addition to the list of "species we know about." It's a new spider species. This is how language has been used for a long time.

Re: Newly discovered spider builds spring loaded snare to catch ants

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>theses types of adaptations make it easier for the species to go extinct since its so highly specialized. super interesting. I'm guessing because being highly dependent on a single tactic can make it difficult to adapt or course change ?

As a general rule of dynamical systems, specialization is essentially the exploitation of regularity within your environment. A highly regular environment can allow for extreme specialization because a system can predict and "expect" certain situations. This leads to much less energy expended, since maintaining stability requires energy that scales with the turbulence of a system. If gravity is always down, you don't…

fascinating and thank you for the great explanation. I was actually going to followup and ask with regards to AI but your response covered it aswell :)

Re: Newly discovered spider builds spring loaded snare to catch ants

#43
post #28
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many such mysterious mysteries in evolution. Some wasps paralyse a caterpillar of a particular species by stinging it very precisely in its nervous centres, then carries the caterpillar into the nest it previously dug out, lay its egg on the caterpillar then close the hole to never come back. This is a completely automatic, unintelligent behaviour; if you remove the paralysed caterpillar at any point in the…

> lay its egg on the caterpillar > it will close its nest without any caterpillar inside, where the larva will die out from lack of food ...wouldn't the larva be with the caterpillar? You said that's where it lays the eggs.

The process is as follows :

1° the wasp digs a hole in soft ground

2° it paralyses a caterpillar (some other species use different worms, or beetles, as their victims; but each species of wasp targets one precise species of caterpillar or bug and cannot use any other food source for its larvae than the one it's genetically programmed to catch).

3° it carries the caterpillar into the hole

4° it lays its egg on the caterpillar, far from the head

5° it closes the hole with dirt

6° the egg hatches in the dark, and the larva feasts on the paralysed caterpillar, eating it alive.

If you pull out the caterpillar while the wasp turns around to lay its egg, it doesn't interrupt itself. IIRC even if you take the caterpillar while it's flying to the hole, it still proceeds to the end, without the caterpillar (which makes no sense at all, showing it's a purely reflex activity, without any intelligence).

Se for instance https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3462

(Jean-Henri Fabre was a marvellous writer, and the English translation is very good).

Re: Newly discovered spider builds spring loaded snare to catch ants

#44

HN pedantry time: >discovered a remarkable new spider species... Recently evolved then? Or perhaps... "An international team of researchers has recently discovered a remarkable spider species..."

The notion of a species only really exists in the human world; it's a human concept. So the discovery of a new species is the discovery of a new classification need. It is new to science.

(At a first approximation, essentially all existing species are new on an evolutionary level — isn't it the case that something like 99.9% of all life on earth is newer than a million years old?)

Re: Newly discovered spider builds spring loaded snare to catch ants

#45

Heh, for a second there this read like some of the Portiid adventures with Bianca and Fabian from Adrian Tchaikovsky's book "Children of time". If you find this kind of thing interesting and are a fan of sci-fi, I highly recommend the book.

Children of Time is fantastic! I ended up totally rooting for the spiders in the end.

Re: Newly discovered spider builds spring loaded snare to catch ants

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>theses types of adaptations make it easier for the species to go extinct since its so highly specialized. super interesting. I'm guessing because being highly dependent on a single tactic can make it difficult to adapt or course change ?

As a general rule of dynamical systems, specialization is essentially the exploitation of regularity within your environment. A highly regular environment can allow for extreme specialization because a system can predict and "expect" certain situations. This leads to much less energy expended, since maintaining stability requires energy that scales with the turbulence of a system. If gravity is always down, you don't…

I should add that another way to consider this constraint is the good regulator theorem: every good regulator of a system must be a model of that system.

Through this lens, you can view an organism as an hierarchical collection of various models of its environment at different scales. As the organism specializes further, its model of the world can simplify, and it is free to explore simplification of some internal structures so that others can become more optimized for the more dynamic parts of the model which may need realtime updates, such as recognizing and tracking fast-moving prey. Various positive feedback loops result, and drive evolution.

It all comes back to the amount of free energy needed to predict the next state. In the information-theoretic sense, regularity lowers the uncertainty of the next relevant state given the system’s model. Specialization is what occurs when the system transforms that lower uncertainty into structure. This saves energy because the system has less ambiguity to resolve in realtime. But in the case of most biological organisms, it takes tens to millions of years for an organism's structure to react to its environment, so the cost of these "cheap reads" (metabolically speaking) on the model is an extraordinarily long, expensive and nondeterministic write process to update the model.

If an organism specifically allocates enough free energy to allowing rapid mutation while still constraining bad evolutionary paths, while metabolically expensive it can lead to organic evolution on the span of literally just decades:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/lizard-ev...

> The new habitat once had its own healthy population of lizards, which were less aggressive than the new implants, Irschick said. The new species wiped out the indigenous lizard populations

> Researchers found that the lizards developed cecal valves—muscles between the large and small intestine—that slowed down food digestion in fermenting chambers, which allowed their bodies to process the vegetation's cellulose into volatile fatty acids.

> The rapid physical evolution also sparked changes in the lizard's social and behavioral structure, he said. For one, the plentiful food sources allowed for easier reproduction and a denser population.

> The lizard also dropped some of its territorial defenses

The lizard not only developed a new organ to help it eat the local vegetation, but it exploited the regularity of dominion to reduce metabolic energy which was previously allocated for modelling an environment exhibiting territorial pressure from competing species.

Re: Newly discovered spider builds spring loaded snare to catch ants

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a general rule of dynamical systems, specialization is essentially the exploitation of regularity within your environment. A highly regular environment can allow for extreme specialization because a system can predict and "expect" certain situations. This leads to much less energy expended, since maintaining stability requires energy that scales with the turbulence of a system. If gravity is always down, you don't…

fascinating and thank you for the great explanation. I was actually going to followup and ask with regards to AI but your response covered it aswell :)

I just expanded more in a reply to my own comment if you're interested!

To technically expand a bit on AI:

Any regularity in an environment which an embedded system can detect but fails to exploit represents an amount of excess free energy in the organism, distributed over itself, its group, its species, etc. depending on what types of systems and scales you choose to model.

There are parallels in information theory: any recognizable patterns/relationships within a compressed message represents excess entropy (the average uncertainty of future states), since that regularity was not exploited during compression and remained in the compressed structure. This means that a perfectly compressed message is functionally indistinguishable from random noise.

You can view weights in an AI model through the same lens: The weights represent "knowledge" of the environment the model has been exposed to. The model is designed to correctly predict future states, and thus "learning" is effectively the compression of a full model of the environment, which is more efficient to traverse than the uncompressed model. A perfectly learned environment minimizes uncertainty and should translate to weights that have no discernible patterns and thus are also functionally indistinguishable from random noise, void of any regularity.

Some level of "compression" of the local environment is required for any stable embedded system, or else the energy required to continually stabilize the system would require an equal amount of energy present as that in all of the universe, because the system would become a perfect copy of the very environment it is embedded within. This is obviously thermodynamically prohibitive.

Hopefully this helps make the relationship between structure, knowledge, information and uncertainty a lot more intuitive.

As a bonus, consider Fabrice Bellard's ts_zip, a great showcase on how knowledge and compression are related.

https://bellard.org/ts_zip/

ts_zip compresses text at record efficiency (at the cost of magnitudes more memory and compute, nothing is free)

Previous attempts at text compression all purely relied on character-level patterns and semantics, syntactical structure, etc., maybe with some heuristic tweaking here and there.

That got us far, but LLMs do something never achieved before, which is to incorporate relationships beyond the surface: not just placement of characters, n-grams or words, but the actual meaning behind them, and large-scale correlations with other words or tokens across vast context windows.

The LLM actually becomes a world model with enough size and training, and thus we are able to use every fact we know about everything to compress text. If we're speaking about biology for example, that constrains the probabilities of what the most likely word might be after a given prefix. Or if the context is constrained to a specific historical period.

All of these regularities can be leveraged, at the cost of a lot of energy, in order to create compressed text that gets arbitrarily close to looking like completely random noise (actually verifying this would require infinite energy though, per Kolmogorov).

The catch is, such systems are specialized and depend on the regularity of cheap, widely-available energy networks and consumer access to cheap compute. Take that away, and it becomes ill-suited vs just using bzip. I mean, even now, bzip is a better choice when considering energy tradeoffs. And ts_zip in particular is specialized to the point of only working with text and not arbitrary byte streams.

Re: Newly discovered spider builds spring loaded snare to catch ants

#48
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Children of Time is one of the best books I've ever read, it's honestly amazing. It might be my all-time favorite. Seconding this recommendation!

I don't think I've been disappointed by anything from Adrian Tchaikovsky, tbh. Alien Clay and Service Model are also great.

I read Alien Clay and another book by him, which it turned out is basically the same book, which I found disappointing.

Re: Newly discovered spider builds spring loaded snare to catch ants

#49
post #9
post #4

It is truly fascinating, I wonder how it evolved like that. Before becoming a spring as it is today how was it hunting in the past? What constraints made it need such a mechanism instead of a typical web?

Injured Himenoptera are known to send pheromones that trigger a vicious defensive response from other members of the colony. On a typical web the companion ants would do what the ants do. Go to war and flood the place surrounding the danger until eventually killing it. The spider does not have neither the stamina, nor the venom amount to deal with that. This web is designed to extract just one ant, while cutting the…

I once watched a spider spinning a very crude "parachute" and catching wind to leap between two parked cars about 6 feet apart. Spiders definitely have great spatial reckoning and a level ingenuity in silk use that is pretty shocking for such small creatures.

Re: Newly discovered spider builds spring loaded snare to catch ants

#50

Heh, for a second there this read like some of the Portiid adventures with Bianca and Fabian from Adrian Tchaikovsky's book "Children of time". If you find this kind of thing interesting and are a fan of sci-fi, I highly recommend the book.

And the Underhill spiderlings in A Deepness in the Sky by Vernor Vinge too!

Another great book that I usually reread right before rereading Children of Time because the whole spider civilization angle is so fun.

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