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Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

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Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#331

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

EvanAnderson wrote: post #235
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure people are reading comment chains deeply enough to be swayed by two strangers arguing online I do, and I have. I’ve also argued something with someone and come out the other side convinced of their position. (Sometimes immediately. More often down the road. Nevertheless, a valuable exchange.)

A very similar experience here. Reading comment threads over the years has absolutely turned me on to perspectives I never even conceived of previously. I've reconsidered my positions (on political and technical matters, mainly) by reading the discourse in comment threads.

Sometimes I post to clarify my own position. Writing helps with that.

There's a whole field of street epistemology which is about persuading people. Arguing with them is one of the least effective ways to do that. Socratic dialogue sometimes works, although for any belief that has an emotional root you're likely to hit a crash out point.

It turns out the most effective techniques are manipulative. The best persuasion doesn't look like argument or persuasion, it looks like something self-evident you can't help agree with.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#333

Post by Lendal »

MichaelApproved wrote: post #21
Dumblydorr wrote: post #4

They never mention they could’ve been wrong. The author assumes they’re always right, but that trying to convince others and argue them to their right side is not valuable. How about: maybe I’m wrong and I didn’t let their ideas influence me. How about: even when I think I’m right, it will be better to calmly kindly discuss, listening as much as talking, not debating or arguing or speaking over them, but attempting t…

The point being made is to pick your battles. The author’s point is that, even if you are correct 100% of the time, fighting every battle is toxic to yourself and everyone around you. They are saying to look past the fact that you might be right and consider that it’s not worth the effort anyway. Now, I will attempt to put down my phone and not respond to any replies I get to the contrary. Sweating intensifies…

Yeah, I agree somewhat.

But I also got the feeling when reading this article that this guy loves motte-and-bailey. People don't intentionally set out to do motte-and-bailey arguments, but they often do it by accident. When people realize that they're arguing the losing side but can't admit it, they subtly shift their argument, and shift, and shift again until they're out of the bailey and inside the unassailable motte. Now they're the "winner" of the argument and can maintain their 100% argument success rate. Nice, and since nobody's recording the conversation, nobody can prove that they changed their argument in order to get on the winning side.

Motte-and-bailey is a common strategy for people who think they've won every argument they've ever been in. Nobody is so logically perfect that they actually win every argument without resorting to some kind of fallacy. I can't prove it. I just speak from experience. When I first learned about motte-and-bailey, I realized I had used it myself without realizing it. It's a natural tendency because it's so easy to do without really thinking.

Once we've learned all the fallacies and recognize them in ourselves, we finally realize that arguing is stupid and stop doing it so much. :)

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#334

Post by manmal »

indoordin0saur wrote: post #303

Most people make their ideas and opinions part of their identity. And so if it turns out they are wrong about something then a part of them has died, or at least severely injured and needs to be healed. A few people are not like this and their ideas are more like a collection of trading cards they keep in their pocket. They think they have a pretty good collection but are not opposed to throwing out one for another i…

I don't think that's opinions, but, rather, going wherever the wind blows.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#335

Post by lxe »

Careful with this philosophy. It does work well for the short term. At some point of constant following of 'disagree and commit' mantra, you'll end up in a world where you have zero agency and zero energy to constantly do the work you hate.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#336

Post by hakunin »

palmotea wrote: post #322
hakunin wrote: post #25

One of the most cancerous developments of our generation is a bunch of people isolating themselves from everyone else, and having their perfect unchallenged audience captured views spread far and wide. On a more personal level, the reason people are frustrated about arguing is because they can’t fully articulate their reasons. They don’t realize it themselves. The older you get and the more practiced you get at argui…

> One of the most cancerous developments of our generation is a bunch of people isolating themselves from everyone else, and having their perfect unchallenged audience captured views spread far and wide. A takeaway from that: if you think you're right about everything and rarely find yourself in situations where you're forced to doubt your ideas (at least a little), it's possible what's actually going on is you're ju…

That’s if you are trying to learn. Many of these know exactly what they’re doing, on purpose.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#338

Post by palmotea »

hamdingers wrote: post #319
Johanx64 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The frustrating part about arguing - on the internet: 1. Infinite supply of people. 2. 90%+ of times before you get anywhere, you find out the person doesn't have "what it takes". At minimum you have to filter out 90%+ of people that simply don't have the mental faculties to evaluate what is and isn't a valid argument, before you even get started. All this just takes energy and there's just no benifit. Its like imagi…

It's generous to assume all the difficult accounts you encounter are lacking mental faculties. Many are participating with the goal of wasting your energy. This site in particular is infested with accounts that seem to have some real intelligence behind them, but they use that intelligence to respond to the most absurd and frustrating interpretation of your comments.

> It's generous to assume all the difficult accounts you encounter are lacking mental faculties.

It's also not uncommon for people who are arrogant to think that most people who disagree with them are stupid. They assume they're right so disagreement is a sign of a defect (and helps avoid uncomfortable thoughts like, "could I be wrong?").

> Many are participating with the goal of wasting your energy.

> This site in particular is infested with accounts that seem to have some real intelligence behind them, but they use that intelligence to respond to the most absurd and frustrating interpretation of your comments.

That sounds like software engineers being software engineers. They often think they show off how smart they are by missing the point and nitpicking on some quibble.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#339

Post by prmph »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #330
prmph wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can be absolutely certain of my perception and recollection of what my consciousness is experiencing and has experienced. Note that the truth of this statement does not depend on any certainty about external reality, nor does it depend on certainty that what I perceive or remember is happening or actually happened.

> nor does it depend certainty that what I perceive or remember is what is It absolutely assumes a unitary conscious experience versus what increasingly seems to be the case, a bunch of narratives our brains thread into a cohesive story ex post facto . Put another way, there very well may be hard limits to how much a human-like consciousness can understand itself.

> a bunch of narratives our brains thread into a cohesive story ex post facto

That is exactly the reality I am asserting, whether or not they actually describe an "external" reality

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#340

Post by throw4847285 »

Dumblydorr wrote: post #4

They never mention they could’ve been wrong. The author assumes they’re always right, but that trying to convince others and argue them to their right side is not valuable. How about: maybe I’m wrong and I didn’t let their ideas influence me. How about: even when I think I’m right, it will be better to calmly kindly discuss, listening as much as talking, not debating or arguing or speaking over them, but attempting t…

I agree. Despite ending on a note of self-improvement, I wasn't really convinced that the author has any self-awareness to speak of. For example:

> When you argue with someone, you think you’re debating an idea. Often you’re not. You’re challenging their sense of self.

Oh, they're going to acknowledge that there are emotional reasons for their addiction to arguing.

> So I’ve drawn a line. I only discuss pros and cons with smart people

Oh, never mind.

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