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Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

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Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#241

Post by rolandog »

Dumblydorr wrote: post #4

They never mention they could’ve been wrong. The author assumes they’re always right, but that trying to convince others and argue them to their right side is not valuable. How about: maybe I’m wrong and I didn’t let their ideas influence me. How about: even when I think I’m right, it will be better to calmly kindly discuss, listening as much as talking, not debating or arguing or speaking over them, but attempting t…

Perhaps the point isn't about arguing about something trivial that impacts no one, but about when one is arguing against dangerous ideologies for which the objectives transform things into zero-sum games; e.g. arguing against fascism (because power will be stripped against the many, and put in the hands of a few authoritarians), or against anti-feminism. The world is filled with people that have taken the bait ("pilled") and that don't realize they're (or are actively) enabling this concentration of power while they're focused on hating a small demographic (LGBTQ, feminists, black people, immigrants).

I don't think we've solved the problem of what to do with evil people that are too smart to pretend they have been rehabilitated. So, an amicable chat with them won't really win them over.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#242

Post by malfist »

mattw2121 wrote: post #219
malfist wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been reading the writings of stoic philosophers each morning and journaling about what I read and I think this fits in well with that philosophy. We're all here on Earth to enrich ourselves (and I don't mean materially) and those around us. Arguing with strangers online is antithetical to that premise. You don't better yourself by engaging in pointless squabbling, and you don't enrich the other person or those a…

Do you have a recommendation to start reading about stoicism, but potentially not the early philosophers? A more modern text?

Check out Ryan Holiday's books! There's the Daily Stoic that is a daily meditation on a stoic writing, one page to read and think about each day, and then there's also a journaling prompt one. I use the meditation book, and then often find Ryan Holiday's curation useful, but his trimming of context a bit too aggressive to give him the ability to put it all on one page, so I might read the source along with what is written there.

Most of the stoic writings are letters and aren't super long. They're very approachable!

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#243

Post by TheRealPomax »

> Sometimes I won on points and lost the person. More often I won nothing at all: I’d watch someone grow more certain of the very thing I had just disproven, while the room quietly drifted to their side. I would walk away technically right and completely alone.

This is why debating is taught in school in the Netherlands (and I'm sure other countries, too). Winning an argument is not the same as convincing someone they were wrong: that's something you need to learn how to do and then something you need to actively practice with others.

Just having good arguments makes you a dick. Having good arguments and being able to empathize with the opposition's and conceding their position on any merit, while showing there's a solution that'd they'd prefer even if they don't know that yet, makes you someone helpful and trustworthy.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#244

Post by ricardobeat »

gobdovan wrote: post #214
hakunin wrote: post #25

One of the most cancerous developments of our generation is a bunch of people isolating themselves from everyone else, and having their perfect unchallenged audience captured views spread far and wide. On a more personal level, the reason people are frustrated about arguing is because they can’t fully articulate their reasons. They don’t realize it themselves. The older you get and the more practiced you get at argui…

> isolating themselves & having their [...] views spread far and wide > most cancerous developments & the less contentious it becomes Your comment complains that people cannot articulate their reasons, while making a sweeping, emotionally loaded claim whose reasons are themselves barely articulated.

That doesn't read as a complaint, it's a realization, and the argument is articulated enough.

Are you challenging the idea that echo chambers facilited by modern tech are harmful, or that people get better at expressing themselves as they get older? From here it looks like you're doing neither, just taking a stab at the comment's author.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#245

Post by juleiie »

cogman10 wrote: post #58
malfist wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been reading the writings of stoic philosophers each morning and journaling about what I read and I think this fits in well with that philosophy. We're all here on Earth to enrich ourselves (and I don't mean materially) and those around us. Arguing with strangers online is antithetical to that premise. You don't better yourself by engaging in pointless squabbling, and you don't enrich the other person or those a…

> What is the goal when you start arguing with someone online? Is that goal achievable? For me the goal is twofold. I'm arguing for the people reading the comment chain, not necessarily the commenter's sake. I know it's nearly impossible to convince someone you are arguing with. But also I do try and have an open mind. It's not common that I change my position, but it does happen. For example, I was once a climate ch…

Honestly if you change your opinion under effect of some online strangers then it wasn't a strong conviction in the first place

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#247

Post by nilirl »

lucisferre wrote: post #237
nilirl wrote: post #226

The author's argument is hilariously wrong because we've been doing something for thousands of years: teaching. And it works, to some degree. And how do teachers teach? They don't start by trying to argue or by trying to prove students wrong. They teach by showing what's fascinating. Taking the time to show people what's fascinating, what's perplexing, where the tension lies, and how it's resolved, is teaching. Argum…

This comment is so brutally ironic. Wow.

Meaning?

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#248

Post by win311fwg »

Johanx64 wrote: post #72
hakunin wrote: post #25

One of the most cancerous developments of our generation is a bunch of people isolating themselves from everyone else, and having their perfect unchallenged audience captured views spread far and wide. On a more personal level, the reason people are frustrated about arguing is because they can’t fully articulate their reasons. They don’t realize it themselves. The older you get and the more practiced you get at argui…

The frustrating part about arguing - on the internet: 1. Infinite supply of people. 2. 90%+ of times before you get anywhere, you find out the person doesn't have "what it takes". At minimum you have to filter out 90%+ of people that simply don't have the mental faculties to evaluate what is and isn't a valid argument, before you even get started. All this just takes energy and there's just no benifit. Its like imagi…

> 1. Infinite supply of people.

Untrue. On the internet there are no people, only computers.

As the great Marshall McLuhan once said: the medium is the message.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#249

Post by stared »

There was "It’s Not Enough to Be Right – You Also Have to Be Kind" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21490714

But I think the core part is WHY we want to be right? To prove something to others, or to ourselves? To feel better? As a compulsion? As a gambler's fallacy? Many motivations are less lofty that we dare to admit.

I wasted way to much time arguing online. It was mostly wasted time, and wasted emotions. I mean, I also had many eye-opening and enlightening discussions, but these rarely were fights.

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