Live data from Hacker News

Claude Sonnet 5

anthropic.com

331–340 of 822 posts

Re: Claude Sonnet 5

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there's a real opportunity for one of these companies to invest time in a model that's tuned for, to use your term, agent-assisted developement. Trouble is, everyone inside their buildings seems to believe that no one will be working like that in a year or two.

There’s no way to justify their valuations if they get downgraded to a pair programming tool. They need fully agentic stuff to work and replace human engineers to even come close. Offhand, I’m not even certain whether a model like that could justify the constant retraining we’re doing on the agentic models. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to spend millions or billions on training to reduce hallucinations by 0.3% if yo…

> There’s no way to justify their valuations if they get downgraded to a pair programming tool.

Honestly I still don't see how they justify their valuations, period. If anything they're serious liabilities.

Open-weight models are improving and reaching "good enough" levels for more and more tasks. They're also known quantities; you know what you're getting with them and don't have to worry about the model silently (or not so silently) being switched out from under you (whether that's because Anthropic/OpenAI decides you're not worthy of their latest and greatest for one reason or another, or they switch you to a quantized model to save on compute, or they simply sunset the specific model you've been relying on).

And if the open-weight model doesn't run on your local hardware already, there are any number of hosting providers that will handle that for you (so you're back to just paying for colocation/cloud usage instead of nebulous tokens).

Closed models are improving as well, sure, but diminishing returns will eventually kick in (as they already have for various tasks, as I said).

So if not their models, where does their value come from? Just simple network effects/lock-in? "Normal" users will drift to other options if they start showing more and more ads, and enterprise customers will surely be looking for opportunities to avoid lock-in and reduce risk.

I think the last argument I've heard is that these valuations are basically a bet that Anthropic and/or OpenAI will achieve AGI that can fully replace human labor, so they'll essentially be able to sell that replacement labor to everyone. They haven't managed to pull that off, yet, however. Businesses that have tried to replace humans almost immediately realized either that the AI's capabilities were oversold or that they at least needed a human in the loop still, to some degree. And even if they do achieve AGI, that would surely become an issue of national security (they're already flirting with that today), so who's to say governments won't simply nationalize the best AI labs and either remove them from the economy entirely or perhaps even provide models as a public service to level the playing field?

That all sounds like a giant gamble, if anything. And it's incredibly frustrating to watch as someone that's been unemployed for a year because (a) budgets are being burned on tokens and (b) LLM-generated applications are flooding hiring teams and preventing real people from being seen. (Not to mention, as someone that spends a lot of time in gaming circles, the fact that DRAM and flash storage is quickly becoming inaccessible is just an additional frustration that means people can't even find temporary relief in entertainment.) I can only hope this bubble finally implodes before I lose my house.

Re: Claude Sonnet 5

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two wrinkles to this: - For Claude.ai subscriptions I think Sonnet is much cheaper than Opus. This is why there was a "Sonnet only" usage bar for Max tier for the longest time. - For some tasks the sheer amount of raw input tokens is the most important. For example multimodal computer use tasks. You can't make them any more efficient on Opus by turning down the reasoning, so a cheaper model like Sonnet is u…

> This is why there was a "Sonnet only" usage bar for Max tier for the longest time. it's still there. I still don't totally grok why I can't use all my tokens on Sonnet if I want to... maybe that signals something?

They want to encourage diversifying model use.

Re: Claude Sonnet 5

#334
post #293
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some napkin math -- total global labor compensation is about 50% of the GDP, which puts it in the USD 50 - 60 Trillion range: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/labor-share-of-gdp This source claims that knowledge workers alone (probably because they are paid much more) account for 35 - 50 Trillion of that: https://github.com/danielmiessler/Substrate/blob/main/Data/K... If LLMs can boost their productivity even by an…

I want to propose alternative reality where 1.5-2.5T in value doesn't go to a handful of companies. Instead it turns out to be like restaurants where this gets distributed to lots and lots of small, local, mostly interchangeable teams. There will of course be some super star "chefs" leading the industry and setting trends and some "restaurant chain" like big businesses and supply chain for all of this.

The world is not zero sum. Value is created, not just preserved. Anthropic and OpenAI creating value does not imply that smaller guys can not also create value.

Re: Claude Sonnet 5

#335
Have they ever said what the difference is between Sonnet and Opus? Are they trained differently? Different architectures? Is Sonnet a distillation? Is it just that Sonnet has less resources for inference?

None of the other labs are doing this kind of long lived two model series.

Re: Claude Sonnet 5

#336
post #334
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to propose alternative reality where 1.5-2.5T in value doesn't go to a handful of companies. Instead it turns out to be like restaurants where this gets distributed to lots and lots of small, local, mostly interchangeable teams. There will of course be some super star "chefs" leading the industry and setting trends and some "restaurant chain" like big businesses and supply chain for all of this.

The world is not zero sum. Value is created, not just preserved. Anthropic and OpenAI creating value does not imply that smaller guys can not also create value.

But marketplaces also exist and big players in a marketplace are often able to manipulate the market such that they are advantaged and small players are not able to break in.

Re: Claude Sonnet 5

#337
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They spent months hyping up Mythos and ended up with it banned. I’d assume they want to both differentiate their products and appeal to regulators here

I'm starting to think it discovered a 0-day held hidden by our government.

Oh, it done found like 50 of those

Re: Claude Sonnet 5

#338

I'm struggling to understand why I'd ever use this instead of just using a lower effort level for opus given on many of the benchmarks listed the cost per task rises above opus at anything higher than medium effort. Only thing I can think of is for when someone is out of opus credits. Of course there are API billing use cases but I'd probably still just use opus on low.

Looking at some of the agentic coding benchmarks on the system card[0], pages 117-118, it seems that running it at low outperforms Sonnet 4.6 at any level, and is a good deal cheaper as well. So on low it could be a good workhorse for an Opus-planned task.

[0] https://www.anthropic.com/claude-sonnet-5-system-card

Re: Claude Sonnet 5

#339
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just one benchmark, though. Tab to the next one and Sonnet 5 performs better as effort goes up just as you'd expect. I imagine the suggestion is that performance vs effort tradeoff is task dependent.

No it doesn't? It's worse than Opus across the whole shared frontier on both plots.

Agreed. The graphs clearly show that opus 4.8 performs strictly better at the same cost per task

Re: Claude Sonnet 5

#340
post #274

Claude Sonnet 5 is built to be the most agentic Sonnet model yet. It can make plans, use tools like browsers and terminals, and run autonomously at a level that, just a few months ago, required larger and more expensive models. I have been using Sonnet 4.6 more than Opus, because I'm mostly doing agent-assisted development and not fully agent-driven development. This announcement does not make me positive, I have fou…

I think you should try an OpenAI model like GPT 5.5. It is better at following instructions and boundaries set during prompt. It feels like a more capable "agent assistant" than Claude models but without loss of intelligence. Most of my work involves "Agentic engineering" instead of fire-and-forget. I like to stay involved during the planning as well as review and ask a lot more questions from the agent than I've see…

I prefer GPT 5.5 to Opus but both are absurdly expensive token hogs, I can't afford to use either as my main model at $work with the monthly spend cap we have.

I use Composer (since we use Cursor) or GPT 5.3-codex as my workhorse models and only break out the big guns when I have a genuinely difficult problem to solve.

IMO somewhat weirdly 5.3-codex might be the best overall coding model OpenAI have ever released. It's 90% as good as 5.5 and costs about 20% as much, since it's both cheaper per token and uses fewer tokens for the same task.

I'll miss it when they inevitably deprecate it, but hopefully I can use Kimi K2.7 by then

Post reply on HN