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Xsnow "protestware" in Debian

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Re: Xsnow "protestware" in Debian

#41

Post by [deleted] »

bradrn wrote: post #13
Svoka wrote: post #2

How is seeing more Ukrainian flags a discrimination? Discrimination implies something harmful. Like invading neighbor country and perpetrating genocide. This complaint says more about Ivanov than anything else.

This point in the comments made me think twice: > People in Western countries don't realize how bad the situation on the ground actually is; random Ukrainian flags showing up on your work monitor can result in severe problems for you (like losing you job, or worse), especially if you work in the government sector. If they show up on your laptop in a random cafe or an airport, you might very well get a beating from on…

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Re: Xsnow "protestware" in Debian

#42

Post by JoshTriplett »

krunck wrote: post #14

One comment really nails the problem with this sort of thing: " People in Western countries don't realize how bad the situation on the ground actually is¹; random Ukrainian flags showing up on your work monitor can result in severe problems for you (like losing you job, or worse), especially if you work in the government sector. If they show up on your laptop in a random cafe or an airport, you might very well get a…

Note that xsnow already displayed such flags randomly, and this just changes the probability.

So, if you're in a location where displaying the Ukraine flag will get you shot, 1) it was already not safe to run xsnow, and 2) much more importantly, I genuinely hope you can successfully escape your situation.

Re: Xsnow "protestware" in Debian

#43

Post by mopsi »

krunck wrote: post #14

One comment really nails the problem with this sort of thing: " People in Western countries don't realize how bad the situation on the ground actually is¹; random Ukrainian flags showing up on your work monitor can result in severe problems for you (like losing you job, or worse), especially if you work in the government sector. If they show up on your laptop in a random cafe or an airport, you might very well get a…

That's also a good argument for completely removing rainbow flags from everything, in more countries than one. Will we see that happening?

Re: Xsnow "protestware" in Debian

#45

Post by kstrauser »

I could not be less sympathetic on this. If you don't want people protesting your actions, don't, like, invade their country.

"But what if it was the US doing the invading?" Yes, even then. If some Iraqi author made an Xsnow that waved little Iraq flags, that's their right. Even if I disagree, it doesn't harm me, and it might inspire me to consider our actions.

"But what if it makes someone's boss get mad at them?" If my boss saw an Iraq flag on my screensaver, I'd say "huh, look at that! I guess that was added in the new version. I'll change it to another screensaver." And if you live in a country there the likely reaction is that your boss might execute you, your government are the baddies.

Re: Xsnow "protestware" in Debian

#46

Post by michaelmrose »

krunck wrote: post #14

One comment really nails the problem with this sort of thing: " People in Western countries don't realize how bad the situation on the ground actually is¹; random Ukrainian flags showing up on your work monitor can result in severe problems for you (like losing you job, or worse), especially if you work in the government sector. If they show up on your laptop in a random cafe or an airport, you might very well get a…

This sounds like a you problem. Suppose you have software that shows famous faces and quotes as a screensaver would you make it by default not show anyone of color so it would be acceptable in rural Oklahoma or make it show no women so it would be acceptable in Iran?

Re: Xsnow "protestware" in Debian

#48

Post by netsharc »

JCattheATM wrote: post #40
netsharc wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, are you American? What are you doing about your governments funding and supplying of genocide? Your litany of excuses also apply to the average Russian...

Except most Russians support their government and believe its lies...

I can say that about Americans. What proof do you have, or do you "just know it"?

https://nestcentre.org/what-russians-think-about-the-war-aga...

> For most ordinary Russians, the war is not a central concern. This may sound cynical, but it’s the truth.

> When they do think about it, they tend to view it much like the weather: something that one may or may not like, but which lies beyond individual control and to which one simply adapts.

I admire a friend of mine in London who every weekend went to anti-genocide rallies in London. But at the same time I can imagine it's excruciating work, yelling and protesting and not saving any single Palestinian child's life. Meanwhile in Russia, protesting will get you arrested and probably be sent to the frontline (as a man) or prison (as a woman). Given those choices, would you also not say "Well, I can be angry and depressed about the Ukranians (and my fellow countrymen forced to fight the war) being killed, or I can just go about my day and put this exhausting thought aside"...

Meanwhile in America, there's a political party using the Nazi playbook to subvert democracy and succeeding. Are you American? Are you doing everything to stop that, or do you see yourself powerless and so you go about your day and put that exhausting thought aside?

Re: Xsnow "protestware" in Debian

#49

Post by jszymborski »

4bpp wrote: post #34
jszymborski wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yah that's where I stand on it. The message isn't harmful or hateful, it dares only make a political statement.

It's still selective degradation of functionality, as presumably people who download a snowglobe animation program don't do it to see any sort of statement apart from normative depictions of wintery things. The problem would be the same if it showed Russian flags only to users with Ukrainian locale, or ads for Mountain Dew only when the user's locale is set to French, or even just something as impossible to interpret…

right, which means the software is less useful and as such you might not want to use it. Plenty of software like that listed on repositories, which I think is fine.

Re: Xsnow "protestware" in Debian

#50

Post by neilv »

belorn wrote: post #17
neilv wrote: post #5

I'm very sympathetic to Ukraine and the desire to demonstrate or speak out, but I don't see how this instance is very effective, and doing it has a significant cost to the integrity of Debian, as this argument says: > Russ Allbery agreed that the DFSG was not relevant; he also warned that citing the Social Contract and DFSG ""turns the conversation into rules lawyering without addressing the actual issue"". However,…

The simple solution that should make everyone happy is to simply document it. That way it is no longer a hidden behavior, and the Debian maintainer could even do that as a patch without the help of upstream.

That might be responding too narrowly to this objection.

Then there's the question of singling out some subset of Debian users based on their country, for different behavior they presumably don't want and that is against their individual interests (see the other comment, about displaying a flag getting you beaten).

The solution is to treat everyone fairly and honestly, and to set an example for how people can get along. Imagine Debian is an international space station: the astronauts will help each other, not bicker and backstab. There are other venues for conflicts.

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