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European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

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Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#231

Post by nradov »

intrasight wrote: post #189
spwa4 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But ... the alternative is that the government actually pays a bit of money to fix the situation! To support their solutions. To actually develop them for enough devices. To secure them ... Plus the services the government made are way more invasive than the Google/Apple ones. In addition to the money, actually using them would be hundreds of times more complex, and they don't have the provisions Google has, for exam…

I just dont buy the argument that it would be that expensive for the governments to provide certified keychain fobs that provide hardware based identification.

It's pretty expensive to deal with all of the technical support and identity verification work when people lose their devices and need to have credentials reset.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#232

Post by wqaatwt »

p2detar wrote: post #205
aardvarkr wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is any of that capable of replacing google and apple on mobile?

Clearly it isn’t. This is what techies forget: The mass amount of Europeans don’t give 2 shits about digital sovereignty or open source. Christ, people go to mobile operator shops and give their unlocked phones to consultants to install or remove software for them. You want them to install GrapheneOS or manage a rooted device? That ain’t even funny. The only short-term solution is more regulation and more EU-centrali…

> we need single European stock market

New York alone has 2 stock exchanges. I don’t think that companies being listed in London, Paris and Frankfurt (they generally are listed on several anyway) is the actual issue.

Especially these days the stock market is the very final stage anyway, most funding for growing tech companies is private funds, vc etc.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#233

Post by lokar »

nradov wrote: post #231
intrasight wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just dont buy the argument that it would be that expensive for the governments to provide certified keychain fobs that provide hardware based identification.

It's pretty expensive to deal with all of the technical support and identity verification work when people lose their devices and need to have credentials reset.

How do the apps bootstrap identity? Do they just use Apple/google (that seems really bad), or do they have you do some verification and input a token into the app somehow?

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#234

Post by wqaatwt »

sscaryterry wrote: post #33
clarionbell wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. EU is actually trying to decouple. But in many cases there are not any homegrown alternatives to support. There is not a single company in EU that could replace, even a considerable part, of software stack provided by Google and Apple. And, unless the regulatory environment changes., there probably never will be.

This is simply untrue. The tech is there, the will (money) isn't.

EU has no issues with wasting and burning large amounts of money for no particular reason. The issue is that the people there are incapable (or don’t want to) make the right decisions for any of this to happen.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#235

Post by ExoticPearTree »

microtonal wrote: post #214
Tangurena2 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't just Trump. The CLOUD Act basically gives Washington the power and ability to turn off any server operated by any US company at will/whim. The Wikipedia page only talks about stored data on (optionally foreign) servers without any sort of regard for the laws of the country where that server is located. It ignores the part of the statute where the feds can basically "turn off" that server. And that is the par…

And they already did that. The chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court in The Hague was cut off Office 365 (and e-mail hosted through that), as well as credit cards and bank cards. This did send a shockwave through Europe.

To be fair, the ICC should not have existed in the first place. It was created to persecute the Serbs and then other people that were not liked by Europe mostly.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#236

Post by wqaatwt »

Sol- wrote: post #155
sscaryterry wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply untrue. The tech is there, the will (money) isn't.

The money can't all come from the state. If the EU wants to compete, it should create a common market worth its name where EU companies can raise billions like American ones. If that doesn't happen but we instead pat ourselves on the back for setting aside a pithy 5 million Euros in some EU budget to support open source, it's never going to happen.

> it should create a common market worth its name where EU

There is no reason to believe that the EU (rather than the market participants in the EU) is in any way capable of that regardless of the amount of political will.

Spending massive amounts of money without knowing what you are trying to do or how will just result in a massive amount of grift and corruption

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#237

Post by whizzter »

donjoe wrote: post #197
doikor wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These mobile id's are too powerful, signing contracts, transfering all your funds or taking loans, regulation is also papering it over a bit by requiring high-stakes lenders,etc to do additional checks. Many countries in the EU already have all of that just done though some national equilevant system (for example here in Finland mainly with bank credentials). And in fact additonal checks are done when enough money…

It's great you do have a bank-bound system in Finland. I hope their implementation is not as bad as e.g. the Swedish BankID. BankID is _in theory_ a nice technology. However, it is only handed out to people registered with the Swedish tax authorities holding a Swedish bank account. All daily activities are nowadays bound to BankID: need a doctor's appointment? -> needs BankID; Want to buy something on Blocket? -> nee…

Well that is the point of this entire digital wallet thingy, there's going to be a transition period since everything here is more or less hardcoded to bankid not to mention tons of code with presumptions about Swedish identity semantics (that do differ from other countries).

But on the plus-side the Swedish state-eID solutions is planned to be delivered by end of year and hopefully most organizations will start migrating or at least dual-supporting them and in doing so also fix their services to support foreign eID's in the process.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#238

Post by xpuente »

lxgr wrote: post #112

There's a relatively simple and much more open and secure solution to this: Make physical EU ID cards the attestation source, and require users to tap them against their phone for critical operations (high-value signatures, login on a new device or after repeated authentication failures etc). That would solve the open hardware/OS "problem" on the device entirely, as there's no trusted hardware or OS signature require…

How can you have a secure enclave without hardware attestation? Processor root-key is the source for all.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#239

Post by ExoticPearTree »

Tangurena2 wrote: post #200
ExoticPearTree wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully not. This hate towards good technology and innovation because you don’t like the current president is ridiculous. He’ll be gone in two years or so and then we’ll get back to normal.

It isn't just Trump. The CLOUD Act basically gives Washington the power and ability to turn off any server operated by any US company at will/whim. The Wikipedia page only talks about stored data on (optionally foreign) servers without any sort of regard for the laws of the country where that server is located. It ignores the part of the statute where the feds can basically "turn off" that server. And that is the par…

The same thing that any EU based company can be forced to by the country under which jurisdiction it operates.

I don’t see what the problem is. That they actually used it first?

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#240

Post by Longhanks »

71bw wrote: post #48
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only problem is, EU does not control these devices, Google and Apple and by extension the US government does.

Oh they sure do, because Google/Apple have to bend over backwards for the EU as they are not stupid enough to suddenly lose 500 million users.

Really? Google to this day refuses to do business in China, and Apple at this very moment excludes the EU from multiple new iOS 27 features that launch in the rest of the world. And with the current direction the EU is taking (e. g. even more regulation, more economic recession, even fewer competitive tech businesses), I wouldn’t bet on US companies getting "more favorable" towards the EU.
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