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Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

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Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#51

Post by kibwen »

abound wrote: post #37
michael1999 wrote: post #10

It is not all obvious that consciousness precedes language. Hellen Keller provides a vivid description of her pre-verbal mental state as something less than reflective conscious. > Before my teacher came to me, I did not know that I am. I lived in a world that was a no-world. I cannot hope to describe adequately that unconscious, yet conscious time of nothingness. I did not know that I knew aught, or that I lived or…

Similarly, I'm reading "Supernormal Stimuli" now, and there's a whole section on infants raised by various animals (chimps, wolves, chickens, leopards, etc, etc). When they are found and brought back to human societies, basically none of them develop full language and integrate fully. There's also the grim history of language deprivation experiments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experimen... It…

That humans who have grown out of their optimal brain plasticity and hence never acquire the capacity for ordinary human language are not somehow "conscious" is not supported. Rather, it means that, by its very definition, we do not have the means to communicate with them in order to even ask the sorts of questions necessary to determine such a thing. The premise is unfalsifiable.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#52

Post by Wowfunhappy »

> But one thing scares me a little. What if LLMs slowly become worse? Think about it. Everything written before 2017 was made by humans. After 2017, LLMs started filling the open web with their own content. And now that same content is being fed back to train the next LLMs. An LLM can give you perfect grammar and a rich vocabulary, but it can quietly lose the real context. Right now the share of AI content is small. But what happens when it keeps growing?

Have the last-generation LLM pre-screen new training data for the next generation LLM.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#53

Post by jcims »

next_xibalba wrote: post #6
DevarshRanpara wrote: post #2

Stop for one second and ask yourself a simple question. Where do your words come from? When you speak, what comes first, the idea or the word? Do you first feel a thought inside you, and only after that go searching for the right word to wrap around it? I think we all do. The word is never the start. The word is just the skin. The idea, the consciousness, is the thing sitting under it.

> Do you first feel a thought inside you, and only after that go searching for the right word to wrap around it There are enough neuroscience experiments demonstrating how we create post hoc explanations of our actions that I wouldn't trust this intuition prima facie.

I've noticed that more and more of my mental attention while speaking is observing the words that come out of my mouth rather than 'generating' them. I split time between rough pathfinding in my mind to fit a conceptual framework then kind of sit and listen as it comes out to think about how they sound. If I had to guess this happens on a 1-2 sentence chunk at a time.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#54

Post by pigeonwarz »

I'm going to go on a limb here and challenge this assumption. As a parallel thread to the point put forward by michael1999, can we not argue words manifest as the result of the maths performed within LLMs, maths that, for all intents and purposes, is their world? Because the internal maths of how LLMs work is likely to be significantly cruder than the 'real' world that defines consciousness, perhaps we are closer to the ghost in the machine than we would like to admit.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#55

Post by estearum »

vitamark wrote: post #38
michael1999 wrote: post #10

It is not all obvious that consciousness precedes language. Hellen Keller provides a vivid description of her pre-verbal mental state as something less than reflective conscious. > Before my teacher came to me, I did not know that I am. I lived in a world that was a no-world. I cannot hope to describe adequately that unconscious, yet conscious time of nothingness. I did not know that I knew aught, or that I lived or…

Well, language is not really required for thinking and conscious experiences, a huge chunk of people don't even have an internal monologue, and some (that'd be me) don't have any "byproducts" of thought process. Though there are recent experiments showing that unconscious brain retains language processing abilities [1], so the two might be as well independent systems [1]: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-026-10…

IMO it's far more likely that people don't agree on what it means to "have an internal monologue" than that people actually bifurcate that dramatically on cognition. Surely there are some people with an actual difference from baseline, but I don't think it's the near-equal split that seems to appear when you just ask people about internal monologue

This is in contrast with aphantasia (complete lack of mental imagery) which can be correlated with outwardly detectable responses. E.g. people who can imagine mental images will dilate pupils when imagining a bright light with eyes closed, while people with aphantasia will not. Not sure there's an analog for internal monologue but if anyone.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#57

Post by awongh »

> But your brain works the other way around. First there is a concept, a feeling, an image, and then the words come out to describe it.

After this I can't take the essay seriously- this sort of blanket statement about the one true hierarchy of consciousness and knowledge is BS.

While it seems to have been disproven that words in other languages cause people to speak and think differently, that also doesn't mean that words don't have any effect on the way we think, or that the concept of a word always has to come before the word itself.

The reason why we experience the uncanny valley of LLMs is because they don't represent a true consciousness, BUT it's also clear that the architecture represents certain qualities of consciousness- as the models have scaled we can see that it has some other non-word related understanding.

The evidence points to consciousness as a set of interlocking systems- attention, long term memory, short term memory, emotions, etc.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#58

Post by devmor »

estearum wrote: post #55
vitamark wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, language is not really required for thinking and conscious experiences, a huge chunk of people don't even have an internal monologue, and some (that'd be me) don't have any "byproducts" of thought process. Though there are recent experiments showing that unconscious brain retains language processing abilities [1], so the two might be as well independent systems [1]: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-026-10…

IMO it's far more likely that people don't agree on what it means to "have an internal monologue" than that people actually bifurcate that dramatically on cognition. Surely there are some people with an actual difference from baseline, but I don't think it's the near-equal split that seems to appear when you just ask people about internal monologue This is in contrast with aphantasia (complete lack of mental imagery)…

This is in the same vein to what I wanted to say here as well - I find it very likely that people with no internal monologue are executing similar mental processes, just without them being so “front and center” in the mind.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#59

Post by fasteddie31003 »

Maybe consciousness just does not exist. Could it be that humans invented it to feel superior to animals, but it does not really exist? I wonder if we will think of the word "consciousness" in the same way we think of the word "aether" in the future.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#60

Post by kibwen »

jacobr1 wrote: post #20

LLMs as clearly doing more than just modeling words. In order to predict word placement, they need to build some kind of model, their latent space, of the types of things they are able to predict. Not really full world models yet - but they have decent "blog space" or "github project" models. And you can see this with multimodality, or non-text modality modals such as images and audio. They map from their latent spac…

Except that the Chinese Room shows that the existence of a mapping from input to output, however emergently it might have been devised, is not alone sufficient to demonstrate understanding.
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