Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

waag.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 327 posts

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#201

Post by jazzyjackson »

gcr wrote: post #169
ralferoo wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious about this definition, just because it's not something I've ever considered before and googling seems to muddy the water even more. Is it "functionally illiterate" if you can read the language aloud and not understand it, if you also wouldn't have understood the same thing spoken to you? That seems like it's about comprehension ability, not literacy. Although one thing that just occurred to me is that if…

posters upthread are talking about comprehension and value systems, not literacy. "functionally illiterate" is the brush that one paints with when describing people of opposing political viewpoint or lower socioeconomic status, for example.

I must be illiterate because this doesn’t make any sense to me

Being kinda dumb and graduating school without reading a book is not a socioeconomic status

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#202

Post by microtonal »

71bw wrote: post #46
Luker88 wrote: post #36

The EU reference for wallets strictly required google play services https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/eudi-app-andro... So Italy's IO app https://github.com/pagopa/io-app (wallet, documents, age verification) continuously refuses the users' request for GrapheneOS support and requires google. Nothing will change until the lawsuits start coming in. The only hope is the motorola/grapheneOS collaboration and…

The lawsuits, sadly, won't matter. "Security" (or, rather, totalitarian control!) is more important than the 1% of nerds who care enough to tinker with their phone.

First, GrapheneOS supports remote attestation. So if they want their security, they can have it. Second, the current focus of the EU on sovereignty is a window of opportunity and there are better opportunities to fight this than two years ago.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#203

Post by RyJones »

vaylian wrote: post #192
RyJones wrote: post #180

help us help EU residents: https://openwallet.foundation/ https://github.com/openwallet-foundation https://github.com/openwallet-foundation-labs

Can you elaborate?

On the tech side, we are working closely with (for instance) Google: https://github.com/openwallet-foundation/multipaz-wallet

SPRIND: https://github.com/openwallet-foundation/eudiplo

Animo: https://github.com/openwallet-foundation-labs/mdoc-ts

and we do engage with NGOs and governments across the EU.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#204

Post by microtonal »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #183
Luker88 wrote: post #36

The EU reference for wallets strictly required google play services https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/eudi-app-andro... So Italy's IO app https://github.com/pagopa/io-app (wallet, documents, age verification) continuously refuses the users' request for GrapheneOS support and requires google. Nothing will change until the lawsuits start coming in. The only hope is the motorola/grapheneOS collaboration and…

[flagged]

Every Android system support remote attestation. It's part of AOSP. Google just decided not to use it, because Play Integrity allows them to lock in phone manufacturers and force them (per leaked agreements) to preinstall a bunch of Google apps and require to run Play Services and some other components privileged on the system.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#205

Post by p2detar »

aardvarkr wrote: post #194
leonidasrup wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thr answer to US tech giants are not homegrown EU tech giants, but international free software (Free as in Freedom). We already have free operating systems: Linux, BSD. Office software: LibreOffice, etc. EU regulators have stop listening to tech company lobbyists.

Is any of that capable of replacing google and apple on mobile?

Clearly it isn’t. This is what techies forget: The mass amount of Europeans don’t give 2 shits about digital sovereignty or open source. Christ, people go to mobile operator shops and give their unlocked phones to consultants to install or remove software for them. You want them to install GrapheneOS or manage a rooted device? That ain’t even funny.

The only short-term solution is more regulation and more EU-centralized solutions, but of course this is only ok until the next chat-control drama.

Long term, in practice we need single European stock market and a way to provide funding to European companies from any member state, so to be competitive globally without being constantly restricted by every member state’s bureaucracy.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#206

Post by Tangurena2 »

kalaksi wrote: post #158
Arkhaine_kupo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aren't monopolies is what we end up by default if have no regulation at all? No. Monopolies are only inevitable if the goods aren't elastic, if there is a large cost of entry into the market, or if its a market you can create a moat that is unsurmountable. Many markets don't have that even with 0 regulation, but might have second order problems like firms creating unsafe products for example. But in general regulat…

Don't bigger companies also often benefit from scale in multiple ways so it gets harder and harder for newcomers to compete? And if a newcomer does manage to get a foothold, it might get bought.

MS did a lot of lobbying to prevent European governments from trying to migrate to Linux and/or OpenDocument.

Groklaw was a website that was started by a paralegal to try to understand, explain and report on the SCO lawsuit - who benefited and how they benefited. It ended up expanding into the EU anti-trust action against Microsoft and OpenDocument (and how OpenOffice was created as a trojan horse to defang OpenDocument).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groklaw

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#207

Post by Retr0id »

microtonal wrote: post #199
Retr0id wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Special-casing support for GrapheneOS would be a band-aid, they should find a way to avoid requiring remote attestation in the first place, so anyone can use whatever OS they like on whatever hardware they like.

I think there are two fights that are both worth fighting: 1. Completely outlawing remote attestation. 2. In a world where remote attestation is given, let it be controlled in a fair way and not just by Google and Apple. The risk is that only fighting for (1) leaves you in a world with remote attestation, where only Google and Apple can decide who gets to pass and who not. In fact, that is pretty much the world we ar…

Allowlisting GrapheneOS's AVB keys does not meaningfully achieve 2, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48732675

It would be a win for GrapeheneOS users though, so I hope they do get support.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#209

Post by microtonal »

TingPing wrote: post #163
whazor wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm ok with enforcing hardware security. Both for banks and governments. But it must not limit the ability of running custom software on a phone. And especially not enforcing every person to get a Google/Apple signed phone. Like if I get GrapheneOS on my phone. Banking/gov apps should work. But I believe this could be possible with enforcing hardware security as well.

The chain of trust always has a software layer. I don’t believe what you want is possible. I find the bank talking point strange, why are they special, are they even targeted more. It just feels like a boogeyman “think of your money!”

For all practical purposes it's possible to do this. The boot ROM only boots a vendor-signed bootloader, the bootloader verifies the OS kernel, etc., until you have a fully verified boot chain. A secure enclave, which is completely separated from the main CPU and OS performs the attestation using a private key in its tamper-resistant storage and embeds the results of verification by the bootloader. There may be some vulnerabilities, but most of them can be fixed in updates, with exception of the boot ROM.

The reason why the system gets broken in Android occasionally is that most Android phones have terrible security and do not use a secure enclave/processor, etc. (which the iPhone had since 5s + Google/Samsung for quite some years through Titan M/Knox Vault). Instead they use TrustZone, which set up a TEE on the same CPU/RAM as the main OS. Of course, it uses memory protection for separation, but is often vulnerable to side-channel attacks. This is also the reason many Android phones will be cracked by Cellebrite in seconds (recently such a Mediatek TEE vulnerability was made public [1]).

[1] https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2026/03/this-android-...

Post reply on HN