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Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

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Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#61

Post by kyralis »

lovich wrote: post #52
Retric wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an idea sure, but not in practice. Homeopathy was created in 1796, and we still haven’t gotten rid of it. Meanwhile 65 years later https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis The maternal mortality rate dropped from 18% to less than 2%, and he published a book of his findings, Etiology, Concept and Prophylaxis of Childbed Fever, in 1861.

Chiropractory is another pseudoscience that started early and has been surprisingly resilient in spite of the lack of evidence. I was flabbergasted when I learned in my 30s that this was a made up medicine by an OG antivaxxer and magnetic medicine proponent due to the fact that insurance would still pay for it when I was a kid at least, and real doctors still recommended it on occasion.[1][2] [1] https://en.wikipedia…

The problem with making claims about the chiropractic practices is that it spans such a huge range of "absolute bullshit" to "physically grounded adjustments". Joints and vertebrae (especially) really can be out of alignment, and you can absolutely see that on imaging. Muscles in constant tension can be self-reinforcing in ways that don't easily correct themselves without an external force. My wife has significant back issues as a result of various injuries -- one leading to an SI joint that frequently pops out of place, one due to an injury that fractured most of the spinal processes -- and you can absolutely feel the "pop" when an adjustment helps something slide back in place. This is validated by imaging and sports medicine, not just chiropractic quacks.

At the same, adjusting your back isn't going to cure your cancer, no matter what idiots with fake degrees say.

The challenge is that the latter is just as stupid as homeopathy, but whereas homeopathy really has no redeeming qualities beyond the placebo effect, at least chiropractic practices actually do sometimes have groundings in reality.

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#62

Post by qsera »

antoniojtorres wrote: post #56
qsera wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is clear. If it is not clear to you, you are already beyond help...

More vagaries.

Here is something real for you.

Here is an insightful comment [1] in this thread but it is "dead" now, thanks to the down votes of true believers of "science". Any study that goes against the narrative despite any of the merits, would suffer the same fate as this comment.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48728644

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#63

Post by BLKNSLVR »

qsera wrote: post #45
adrianN wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the number of citations you could get for a solid double blind study that showed homeopathy to beat placebo. The only better impact I could imagine would be showing that climate change doesn’t actually exist.

Mmmm..the question is..who would fund it. And if someone funded it, who would publish it...

There's enough money in 'crank health' that, if it were possible to publish something that might have a chance of lending some credibility (and thus expanding the breadth of the vulnerable customer base), then I would think it would have been done already.

This implies to me that the counter-evidence is strong and complete enough to discourage 'investment' into such a pursuit.

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#64

Post by OutOfHere »

qsera wrote: post #36
DrBazza wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I add water to a glass of whiskey and dilute it, why don't I get twice as drunk?

But you can drink a lot more that way and get way more drunk!

Assuming the original dilution is adequate, further dilution will slow the consumption, making one less drunk.

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#65

Post by kyralis »

OutOfHere wrote: post #58
jiggawatts wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but homeopaths would consider the less diluted ones to be the weaker “medicine”!

Perhaps some very traditional ones would. Most people are just concerned with addressing their symptoms. Rightly or wrongly, homeopathic products are considered medicines, not supplements, and people in general are very mindful of spending money on medicines that don't work.

> Rightly or wrongly, homeopathic products are considered medicines, not supplements, and people in general are very mindful of spending money on medicines that don't work.

[Citation needed].

People spend enormous amounts of money on junk "cures" and have done for centuries. Homeopathy is just one of the many current such scams.

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#66

Post by OutOfHere »

kyralis wrote: post #61
lovich wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chiropractory is another pseudoscience that started early and has been surprisingly resilient in spite of the lack of evidence. I was flabbergasted when I learned in my 30s that this was a made up medicine by an OG antivaxxer and magnetic medicine proponent due to the fact that insurance would still pay for it when I was a kid at least, and real doctors still recommended it on occasion.[1][2] [1] https://en.wikipedia…

The problem with making claims about the chiropractic practices is that it spans such a huge range of "absolute bullshit" to "physically grounded adjustments". Joints and vertebrae (especially) really can be out of alignment, and you can absolutely see that on imaging. Muscles in constant tension can be self-reinforcing in ways that don't easily correct themselves without an external force. My wife has significant ba…

Your understanding of modern homeopathy is rooted in misconceptions. Many homeopathic products actually contain a sufficient amount of the active ingredient that they absolutely can conceivably have a significant biological effect.

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#67

Post by qsera »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #63
qsera wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mmmm..the question is..who would fund it. And if someone funded it, who would publish it...

There's enough money in 'crank health' that, if it were possible to publish something that might have a chance of lending some credibility (and thus expanding the breadth of the vulnerable customer base), then I would think it would have been done already. This implies to me that the counter-evidence is strong and complete enough to discourage 'investment' into such a pursuit.

>There's enough money in 'crank health' that,

But there is many order of magnitude more money invested in preventing the publication of something like that..

All the "reputed" journals who gets funded by pharma would not touch such a study, despite any merits it have. This is so apparent to anyone who is not completely oblivious of how the world work that no one in their right mind will even attempt to fund such a study...

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#68

Post by BLKNSLVR »

harimau777 wrote: post #6

It would be hilarious if homeopathy turned out to be right! (To be clear, I don't think that will actually happen, but it would be hilarious if it did!)

"Water has memory, and whilst its memory of a long lost drop of onion juice seems infinite, it somehow forgets all the poo it's had in it." - excerpt from Storm, by Nick Minchin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U&t=353s

The entirety of this song is a listen worth your time. Doubly so if you've never heard of Nick Minchin before.

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#69

Post by qsera »

OutOfHere wrote: post #64
qsera wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you can drink a lot more that way and get way more drunk!

Assuming the original dilution is adequate, further dilution will slow the consumption, making one less drunk.

Try drinking a pint dry, and try drinking it diluted with water. And let me know what was easy...

Re: Scientists find molecular-level evidence for two structures in liquid water

#70

Post by Retric »

kyralis wrote: post #61
lovich wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chiropractory is another pseudoscience that started early and has been surprisingly resilient in spite of the lack of evidence. I was flabbergasted when I learned in my 30s that this was a made up medicine by an OG antivaxxer and magnetic medicine proponent due to the fact that insurance would still pay for it when I was a kid at least, and real doctors still recommended it on occasion.[1][2] [1] https://en.wikipedia…

The problem with making claims about the chiropractic practices is that it spans such a huge range of "absolute bullshit" to "physically grounded adjustments". Joints and vertebrae (especially) really can be out of alignment, and you can absolutely see that on imaging. Muscles in constant tension can be self-reinforcing in ways that don't easily correct themselves without an external force. My wife has significant ba…

The issue with changing the alignment of bones with an “adjustment” is it’s your body keeping things in that position. Physical therapy is almost always a better long term fix because it can actually strengthen muscles and increase flexibility through stretching enabling someone to actually maintain proper alignment.

Physical manipulation can work, but the most useful techniques are in widespread use such as dealing with a dislocated shoulder. Which leaves chiropractic practices with almost nothing that’s both unique and particularly useful.

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