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30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

theintercept.com

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Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#311

Post by stronglikedan »

Ukv wrote: post #18
Xorakios wrote: post #12

Here's the case: https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr/antifa-cell-members-con... The 30 year sentence was for hiding documentation being sought under a federal warrant after being called by his wife and asking him to do so. The warrant was for documentation after the protesters shot fireworks to bring out first responders from the ICE facility, and allegedly one of the group shot a responder in the neck instead of th…

> The 30 year sentence was for hiding documentation [...] it wasn't just "transporting Zines" As far as I can tell, the moving of zines (he was pulled over and had a box in his car) is what's being presented as "hiding documentation" - not something beyond that. > being sought under a federal warrant Timeline seems to be that a warrant was obtained after pulling him over ("Sanchez-Estrada was then arrested on state t…

If you lie with dogs, you're going to get fleas. :shrug:

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#312

Post by BobbyJo »

godwinson__4-8 wrote: post #195
BobbyJo wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, I meant in terms of discussion, not in terms of legal proceedings. Obviously these people were formally charged in a court of law on legal grounds and I assume had their constitutional rights afforded to them. I meant more along the lines of "30 years for hiding a zine" being a weird take. It is logically inconsistent, IMO, to both want to fight a system, and want to be afforded its privileges.

I disagree if only because the clarification you make in your first two sentences doe not square with your last sentence. Why do we read people their rights or formally charge them? If someone has committed a crime is that not in some sense "fighting [the] system"? Why would then the same apparent contradiction you highlight in your last sentence not arise? Even in cases of extreme conflict, there is a certain base s…

> If someone has committed a crime is that not in some sense "fighting [the] system"?

Of course not. I'm speaking directly about intent. It's pretty obvious to me that most crime is committed without any intent regarding "the system".

> Even in cases of extreme conflict, there is a certain base state of "rights" or "privileges" one wants to be afforded, and it is not contradictory of people to do so. See the laws of armed conflict. Even if someone is a complete psychopath and doesn't respect these laws, the law itself usually does not respond in kind.

Well yeah, but again, I'm not explaining this well, I'm not saying they shouldn't expect or want due process. At issue here is "30 years is too much for X". That's not "my rights are being violated", that's "the system is being especially mean to me with respect to applying the law to me with maximum force".

I think they can expect every legal protection due and that's fine, but the outrage at getting the book thrown at them when they were trying to burn the book is what I find strange.

> But there was never - and is usually never - a state where "legality goes out the window".

My wording was really bad. I didn't mean the state shouldn't follow the law, I just meant on a logical basis the "fight the power, wait no, not that power" position becomes inconsistent IMO.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#313

Post by viccis »

Xorakios wrote: post #12

Here's the case: https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr/antifa-cell-members-con... The 30 year sentence was for hiding documentation being sought under a federal warrant after being called by his wife and asking him to do so. The warrant was for documentation after the protesters shot fireworks to bring out first responders from the ICE facility, and allegedly one of the group shot a responder in the neck instead of th…

>choose violence over lawful expression

You mean the ICE agents who've already chosen to respond with violence to any expression, lawful or otherwise, against them?

Ah no, you mean the people upset about them illegally acting as secret police.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#314

Post by laughing_man »

scarecrowbob wrote: post #290
laughing_man wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't matter how they morally equivocate. The reasonable way to address this is through voting and the legal system. If you want to start shooting people, then prepare for a well-deserved, long prison sentence.

" If you want to start shooting people, then prepare for a well-deserved, long prison sentence." * unless you're a law-enforcement officer, in which case folks like laughing_man are totally okay with you killing folks for vandalism because it upholds the legal system.

Depends on what they did. Definitely the guy who shot Ashli Babbitt should have been charged.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#315

Post by simianparrot »

Aeolun wrote: post #269
snvzz wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Or are you saying you'd be happy to have one of these shot at your face? Given the choice between the fireworks and an actual grenade? Yeah, absolutely.

[flagged]

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#316

Post by laughing_man »

goatlover wrote: post #302
laughing_man wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't matter how they morally equivocate. The reasonable way to address this is through voting and the legal system. If you want to start shooting people, then prepare for a well-deserved, long prison sentence.

Unless you're an ICE agent. Then it's okay to execute citizens who are exercising their Constitutional rights. There is an inherent tension here in wanting the rule of law and peaceful democracy to prevail instead of political violence. But the reality is that doesn't always happen. Slavery wasn't ended with a vote, neither was the rule of King George over the colonies. Civil Rights weren't granted to black folks wit…

>Unless you're an ICE agent. Then it's okay to execute citizens who are exercising their Constitutional rights.

I have yet to see anybody assert this, and I have yet to see it happen.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#317

Post by viccis »

snvzz wrote: post #244
dwroberts wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was an incident in Europe, comments like this would be talking about how clearly the state is corrupt, it’s account cannot be trusted, and obviously civilisation is collapsing because free speech outside of the US is dead. “You can be arrested for zines!” Inside the US though? No, clearly the state’s account is definitely accurate , the citizen is obviously guilty, it’s not only correct they are being jailed…

[flagged]

"Terrorist" is a floating signifier; it is not a term used by educated people intending other educated adults to discuss it. It's a term used by either the cynical or the dimwitted to elicit emotional responses from an audience that's commensurately ignorant or cruel. Saying "ah they deserved it because they were terrorists" is begging the question.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#318

Post by laughing_man »

supertroop wrote: post #276
laughing_man wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Stop conflating two different unrelated events. It is nauseating.

These events were not unrelated. It's all part of the same conspiracy.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#319

Post by antoniojtorres »

dwroberts wrote: post #240
Xorakios wrote: post #12

Here's the case: https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr/antifa-cell-members-con... The 30 year sentence was for hiding documentation being sought under a federal warrant after being called by his wife and asking him to do so. The warrant was for documentation after the protesters shot fireworks to bring out first responders from the ICE facility, and allegedly one of the group shot a responder in the neck instead of th…

If this was an incident in Europe, comments like this would be talking about how clearly the state is corrupt, it’s account cannot be trusted, and obviously civilisation is collapsing because free speech outside of the US is dead. “You can be arrested for zines!” Inside the US though? No, clearly the state’s account is definitely accurate , the citizen is obviously guilty, it’s not only correct they are being jailed…

Yeah I feel like I’m going insane reading some of these comments.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#320

Post by laughing_man »

alterom wrote: post #292
laughing_man wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

They didn't shoot a cop. A single individual did. What you're calling for is collective punishment (a war crime in Geneva convention), and guilt by association (a perversion of justice). Kindly, abscond and desist.

If you're part of a conspiracy, you take the blame for what other conspirators do. Take a look at felony murder statutes sometime.
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