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The Radiation Exposure Lie

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91–100 of 144 posts

Re: The Radiation Exposure Lie

#91
post #86

>Chernobyl is the only accident in commercial nuclear history that has exposed people to large enough doses of radiation to poison and kill them. This is not true, it wasn't the only and not even the first. Some examples are collected in this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_orphan_source_incident... The argument is also an annoyingly common attempt to sell the idea that nuclear power is not dangerous beca…

This Wikipedia article seems completely irrelevant to the quote you posted. They're clearly talking about commercial nuclear energy plants, not orphan sources from radiography and radiotherapy machines.

Re: The Radiation Exposure Lie

#92
post #68

Only ~35% of women in the UK support nuclear power while ~65% of men do. https://spectator.com/article/why-are-women-so-anti-nuclear/ So technically, if one extrapolates the best case scenario, if women wouldn't have voting rights, we'd already have nuclear power everywhere. Though to be fair, this varies from country to country and in some countries even women are over 50%. But in many countries women are under 50%…

What are you trying to say? Women shouldn't be allowed to vote? Women, at least in the USA, are going to college and graduating at a higher rate than guys. They have a more legitimate opinion. To be honest, i have chud fatigue.

If more women are graduating and they still have such negative opinion about nuclear then I'm not sure this points to more women graduates being the good thing you think it means.

Re: The Radiation Exposure Lie

#93
post #24

Wow, this was a cherry-picking peace of misinformation, conveniently ignoring the actual counts of people affected by Chernobyl. There's no safe dose of radiation, there's only statistics. And I'm not sure what this article is supposed to justify? Building power generation technology with the potential to make whole regions unlivable is ok now? Willfully creating hazards that can affect people for thousands of years,…

> ignoring the actual counts of people affected by Chernobyl. Do you know what's the count?

> Do you know what's the count?

No one does. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190725-will-we-ever-kno... and we did not take advantage of the event to get better data.

And were not done at that site. It looks like they are going to have to replace the whole New Safe Containment structure. https://world-nuclear-news.org/articles/chernobyl-protective...

No one is in a rush to do that.

Chernobyl is going to be a problem on a time scale that most people can not comprehend. It already requires a "atomic priesthood" kind of outlook... https://www.zygonjournal.org/article/id/14327/

Re: The Radiation Exposure Lie

#94

This article makes some good points but is missing a lot of the larger context. It doesn't use this phrase, but the topic it discusses is called the linear no-threshold (LNT) model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_no-threshold_model The relevant sub-field of physics that studies the effects of radiation is called health physics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_physics Whether and how to replace the LNT mode…

I think you're being too kind. The article is entirely one-sided. The title says lies, so it's fair game to call the content propaganda.

The facts on low-dose radiation exposure are pretty simple.

There is no useful direct evidence about the health effects of low doses of radiation, and there never will be. It's a needle in a haystack problem: the diseases caused by radiation are common, with large fluctuations; the effects of a small additional dose are small. The article claims that the impossibility of measuring outcomes is a reason to believe that small doses of radiation are harmless. It's wrong. No one knows.

There is watertight, laws-of-physics level evidence about the effects of radiation on biological tissues. There is an expert consensus on how those kinds of tissue damage lead to cancer and other diseases. This evidence supports the linear no threshold model.

The weak link is the pathology: that expert consensus could be wrong. I'm a physicist, so I'm not qualified to hold an opinion. I've never heard a specific reason to think it's wrong.

Those are the ises. For the rest of this post, suppose that the linear-no-threshold model is correct (as the available evidence suggests). The oughts that follow are also very murky.

Everyone is exposed to radiation in their daily life, and lots of lives are shortened by the effects. When you are exposed to a tiny bit of extra radiation, you are a tiny bit more likely to die from radiation; there are much worse hazards that you should worry about first.

When everyone is exposed to a tiny bit of extra radiation, many people will die prematurely. It's universally agreed that those people are just as valuable as other people, exposed to rarer and more spectacular risks, who a lot of money is spent to save. If a few less razors were confiscated at airports, and aircraft occupants were a bit better shielded from radiation, more lives could be saved overall.

Any question like that is bound to be politically controversial.

Re: The Radiation Exposure Lie

#95

Reminded of something that Geraldine Thomas, founder of the Chernobyl Tissue Bank, wrote when the Fukushima drama was going on, "Look at the science – smoking and obesity are more harmful than radiation": * https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/26/obesity-... > I can assure you that none of us are in the pay of the nuclear industry. I was anti-nuclear until I worked on the after effects of the Chernobyl ac…

>rubbish about a nuclear winter we were fed during the Cold War

If it weren't for the deterrent factor in the radiation narrative, the Cold War would've become hotter - and there is some truth in the observation that younger generations, not having had this fear of radiation inculcated in them, are too flippant about the idea of a nuclear hot war as a consequence.

So I hope folks will stop thinking that the radiation factor is 'rubbish', swinging the needle the other direction, somehow. Its disheartening to talk to youth these days who had no clue of how terrified we all were in the 80's with the idea of nuclear annihilation, and so feel that a 'hot nuke against Russia would be "okay"' ..

Re: The Radiation Exposure Lie

#96

> Drinking one beer a night for a year is a lot less harmful than drinking 365 beers in one go. The same applies to radiation exposure, but regulation doesn’t agree. Stating something confidently doesn't make it true. Show me the data. The article is long on emotion, exposition, but very short on the data. There's a big concerted effort to change this regulation, but it's not based on data, it's based on feelings. It…

Regarding the beer analogy, can anyone on earth survive 365 beer servings of alcohol without dying? Are you demanding research that 365 beers at once is more harmful than 1/day/year?

The analogy is an obviously true statement that has been extensively documented with enormous amounts of evidence, followed by a statement that has no solid evidence to support it.

Why would you think that I object to the obviously true statement, unless you are being obtuse?

Re: The Radiation Exposure Lie

#97
post #77
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I said, I may be overreacting, by I'd like to err on the side of caution when it comes to my kids' and family's long-term health. But isn't it a trade off, like many things in life? I don't think refusing the x-ray is necessarily erring on the side of caution. You may miss a relevant diagnostic. You have to weigh the probability and impact of the x-ray doing harm vs not getting the routine x-ray and failing to d…

> But isn't it a trade off, like many things in life? It absolutely is. For example, as soon as I turned 45, I got colonoscopy done, because the benefit of getting tested outweighed the cost of getting tested. So if the dentist says, I suspect there's some rot, or my family member has started complaining of toothache, I would have no hesitation to get the x-ray, if recommended. But it is the regular, nonchalant natur…

YMMV on the annual x-ray thing. I used to mostly think the same as you. Expensive and unnecessary risk for no real benefit.

I skipped my x-rays for 3-4 years due to dropping my long term dentist for unrelated reasons.

I recently went to a new dentist due to a previous filling cracking and had the regular x-ray done as part of routine new patient intake.

The x-ray caught the problem in another tooth done at the same time - rot behind a filling that was not visible just by looking. The same thing happened on the tooth that cracked, and had I caught it earlier I wouldn’t have had to have a crown done on it. It’s only a matter of time now until it needs a root canal due to how much material had rotted during those few years between x-rays. Most likely it was shoddy work on the two fillings be previous dentist, but in general fillings have a limited lifetime, they will generally fail at some point and need redoing. A small gap can let bacteria in and starting growing where you can’t see it and a brush won’t reach.

The annual x-ray likely saved me from another crown since the material loss was less due to being caught relatively early. $70 to remove the old filling and refill it vs a $2200 crown.

Xray also caught a pretty serious bone infection issue due to a birth defect combining in an unfortunate way with a sports injury from my teens. Although that one probably would have been done in time due to my two front teeth starting to wiggle I guess. Would have been a couple more years of bone loss though, and and even longer recovery time after the bone graft. And likely more than one implant needed vs the single one I have now.

Your personal risk tolerance and how you weigh things of course is very individualistic and only you can set it. Just tossing one random datapoint out there.

Re: The Radiation Exposure Lie

#98
post #73
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory. But in fact, attempting to build nuclear power plants results in big increases in electric rates, and the supposed benefits of nuclear power end up being delayed by many years and in many cases decades. The effect of trying and failing to build nuclear power plants on time and on budget uses up many billions in capital that could've been applied to reliable delivery of renewables. Even the supposedly effic…

> attempting to build nuclear power plants results in big increases in electric rates Largely due to the costs of complying with draconian regulatory regimes.

Why do those regimes exist, do you think?

Re: The Radiation Exposure Lie

#99
post #86

>Chernobyl is the only accident in commercial nuclear history that has exposed people to large enough doses of radiation to poison and kill them. This is not true, it wasn't the only and not even the first. Some examples are collected in this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_orphan_source_incident... The argument is also an annoyingly common attempt to sell the idea that nuclear power is not dangerous beca…

This Wikipedia article seems completely irrelevant to the quote you posted. They're clearly talking about commercial nuclear energy plants, not orphan sources from radiography and radiotherapy machines.

The list is entirely relevant - the article itself talks about radiation and spends half the text analyzing the result of exactly the kind of exposure that the wikipedia article has several examples of:

"There are cases of Keralans exposed to sand containing thorium; Manhattan Project scientists who inhaled so much plutonium that they peed it out; early British radiologists who worked without any protection from the X-rays they worked with. "

But the article avoided the ones that caused fatalities, despite there being many, many examples.

Why did it do that? Why cherry-pick harmless examples to argue that something is harmless when there are many, many examples that show the opposite?

The explanation is revealed quickly - while the article pretends to talk about low-level radiation being harmless, which is frankly entirely uncontroversial, it is actually using that to try to argue that nuclear power is over-regulated:

"the world’s international radiation protection regime is based on the idea that any release of radioactive material from a nuclear power plant is intolerable. This has led to regulations that have increased the costs of nuclear electricity over time to the point where it is widely considered a slow, backward, and ineffective technology. "

But the safety protocols for nuclear power are NOT based on worries from low-level radiation exposure, they are based on the known risks and dangers of HIGH radiation exposure!

If anything the current problem with nuclear power plans is a lack of respect for how dangerous it actually is.

Nuclear power has been allowed to operate with nowhere near the security measures it requires for decades. The realization of the dangers have so far mostly been discovered by close calls - the 9/11 hijackers at one point planned to hit a nuclear plant. Oops, nuclear plants worldwide were upgraded with security measures to handle passenger jets crashing into them. At least one.

Fukushima had bad reserve power. Oops, let's ensure we have better reserve power. The Sellafield site, The Asse II mine - Oops - We need better storage.

(https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/05/sellafield-...)

We have gotten reminders of how lax the security of nuclear power is many, many times, but so far we have never had a worst case scenario. And because of that, articles like this one pop up claiming it's safe. But it's a lie.

The actual truth is that operating a nuclear power plant safely takes enormous effort and is so expensive no company can do it profitably. The cost always gets shifted to governments.

Re: The Radiation Exposure Lie

#100
post #68

Only ~35% of women in the UK support nuclear power while ~65% of men do. https://spectator.com/article/why-are-women-so-anti-nuclear/ So technically, if one extrapolates the best case scenario, if women wouldn't have voting rights, we'd already have nuclear power everywhere. Though to be fair, this varies from country to country and in some countries even women are over 50%. But in many countries women are under 50%…

I guess we need to study why men are so overwhelmingly wrong on this issue. If men weren't allowed to vote, we'd be in better shape.
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