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30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

theintercept.com

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Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#251

Post by iamnothere »

goatlover wrote: post #229
iamnothere wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For clarity, only people who died on Jan 6th were protestors. The police officer who died on the 7th had a stroke. The two who died later were suicides. It’s negligent to conceal these facts. (Note for clarity, almost everybody posting in this thread on every side is doing this kind of thing. Just move on to the “years of lead” phase already.)

For clarification, the Jan 6th rioters were attempting insurrection, not protesting. The stroke and suicides were a result of the rioters actions.

[flagged]

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#253

Post by rationalist »

topgrain2 wrote: post #144
pc86 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it legal to shoot a uniformed police officer pulling a gun on someone?

Can it be defense of self or others, to shoot a cop who draws a lethal weapon on someone who's not an immediate threat? If it can't, the second amendment is even more pointless than it already appears to be.

Possibly (depending on the state's laws), but good luck staying alive to have your day in court.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#254

Post by 9x39 »

autoexec wrote: post #153
paisawalla wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The wife was charged with: Rioting with the intent to commit an act of violence, providing support to terrorists, and conspiracy to use and carry explosives. In what way would a box of magazines be evidence of any one of those crimes? I very much doubt there was an article called "My plan to commit an act of violence by Maricela Rueda" in any of them. The ones they choose to photograph for inclusion in their criminal…

"The government showed that there were items in the box that were the same items found in the Soto’s residence, tying Sanchez and Rueda to the Sotos, and similar items found amongst the other defendants. It also showed materials in the box contained handwritten notes on them, specifically the name “Ines,” and “Ines in bc” [Ines in book club].

This further drew the connection between Sanchez, Rueda, and the Sotos. This connection was important for purposes of Pinkerton liability and showing they all shared the same motive, intent, knowledge, and foreseeability."

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txnd.41...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkerton_liability

No lawyer, today is the day I learned about Pinkerton Liability, but apparently under it you can be held liable for the actions of your co-conspirators.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#255

Post by smsm42 »

goatlover wrote: post #226
smsm42 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Domestic terrorists who shoot people in the neck. Among millions of things that the government claims to protect mw from, this is one of a few things that I don't doubt I want to be protected from. There's absolutely zero free speech issues here.

One might consider ICE detention centers to be morally equivalent to concentration camps. This sounds like the federal government trying to protect a controversial agency and immigration policy under the current regime, not ordinary citizens. The man who got 30 years wasn't there and didn't fire a gun.

One might consider a lot of things. But if you are at shooting war with United States government, then when United States government puts your away, you don't get to claim it's a free speech issue. You can't sit on those two chairs at once. Either you are a Warrior of Light battling the Nazis, and then it's way beyond free speech, or it's a public discussion and then "free speech" does not include shooting people. You can't claim both. If you're "ordinary citizen", you don't get to shoot at police, or you go to jail, and everybody who helps you does too. If you're a brave revolutionary, then we have a violent revolution, and it's not about "free speech" anymore, revolution is way beyond speech.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#257

Post by 9x39 »

OutOfHere wrote: post #63
paisawalla wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> I think if you append "with the intention to commit a violent crime" to each item on the list, you'll see the issue. No, that doesn't fly, and the intent isn't clear. Even if there were intent, those three bullet points still are not an crime or valid charges. As a member of the jury, I would reject them 100%. Extending your pitiful logic just a few steps, people would be locked up for 30 years just for being born.…

The actual members of the jury convicted the defendants though, accepting the .gov's evidence and witnesses that these individually innocuous elements together established their links to each other, collectively murdering an officer in the course of an attack.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#258

Post by polski-g »

jMyles wrote: post #199
Xorakios wrote: post #12

Here's the case: https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr/antifa-cell-members-con... The 30 year sentence was for hiding documentation being sought under a federal warrant after being called by his wife and asking him to do so. The warrant was for documentation after the protesters shot fireworks to bring out first responders from the ICE facility, and allegedly one of the group shot a responder in the neck instead of th…

I don't approve of the violence apparently planned and carried out by these people, even though their cause was seemingly just. However, we can't afford to let the government's position dictate the particulars of all the facts here. The theory that the fireworks were lit to "bring out first responders" is just that - a theory, from the government's lawyers. The undisputed facts are that these people were working to d…

What in God's name are you talking about? Shot at a police officer "in self defense"? In what world do you have a right to try to murder a cop?

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#259

Post by polski-g »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #122
will4274 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Is there actual evidence of "intent of mass murder"? It seems speculative at best.

Yes. That evidence was presented to the jury and found to be true.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#260

Post by Manuel_D »

thunderfork wrote: post #208
Manuel_D wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "protestors" shot someone, if that's not the wrong way to protest then what is?

An individual shot someone, unless you think multiple people were helping pull the trigger.

This was a coordinated group of people who procured body armor, radios, and firearms, and planned to break into a Federal facility. Responsibility for this incident doesn't rest exclusively on the hands of the shooter.

An analogy is Enrique Tarrio's arrest in the wake of January 6th. Right wingers complained that he wasn't even in the capital during the riot. But of course that's not evidence his innocence. Even though he didn't personally participate in the putsch, he was still held responsible for organizing it (not for long on account of his pardon, unfortunately, but he was still rightfully convicted).

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