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Qwen 3.6 27B is the sweet spot for local development

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Re: Qwen 3.6 27B is the sweet spot for local development

#151
post #39

I was interested to see that Qwen3.5-122B-A10B narrowly beat Qwen3.6-27B on Donato Capitella's SWEBench-verified-mini run with a similar 128GB UMA architecture. https://pi-local-coding-bench.dev

Many people in LocalLLaMA Reddit community has been reporting the same, that 3.5 122B-A10B is on par or slightly better. And a 3.6 or 3.7 od the 122B is one of the models people want to see the most.

Re: Qwen 3.6 27B is the sweet spot for local development

#152
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! I was thinking of doing the 128gb to have some future proofing. I figure at this point, it's akin to a mechanic keeping great tools around, when it comes to having this sort of homelab and exposing it for your own uses. And great practice for building the next era of user facing computing that will be around as this proliferates.

I would not buy a 64GB model again, probably, if this were to remain particularly important to me. But I gather memory bandwidth is pretty important here. So for example I'd favour a used M1 Max over a used M2 Pro, at least based on my naïve understanding. Not quite sure where the balance changes. There appear to be some hardware improvements with the M3 and up regarding the Apple Neural Engine which I'd hope would s…

Used M1 max is still a good choice because its memory bandwidth only got surpassed by generation m4 and later (except with ultra variants which are more expensive). Its prefill speed is not great though, and that is an issue for running larger contexts, which only substantially improved with m5. Moreover, up to m3 they only have thunderbolt 4, not 5, which means that they lack RDMA support which would make stacking machines more effective. So unless you go higher price for m4+ max, or any m ultra, m1 max is pretty decent still compared to m2 and m3 max, definitely better than pro variants, if you can find in a decent price and want to experiment without caring much about time to first token and large contexts.

A very useful resource for characteristics and comparative performance of all M variants, if anybody is interested, is https://github.com/ggml-org/llama.cpp/discussions/4167?sort=...

Its sister discussion for nvidia gpus is https://github.com/ggml-org/llama.cpp/discussions/15013

Note the drop in performance for the base (binned) m3 max version. You are better off with full m1 max than the binned m3 max, even price aside.

The issue I have with my m1 max is that with 64gb you cannot run really decent MoE models, ie the ones you can run like qwen 35B-A3B have only 3b active parameters and are much less capable than qwen 27b in my testing. So I end up running the 27b one, but it runs relatively slow (though still usable at 10-20 tok/s) and I would have been better off a used nvidia gpu setup for dense models. I assume 35B-A3B has its use cases, eg as subagents, just that I cannot find them. With a higher amount of ram I could probably run bigger MoE models which could be more comparable, though prefill would still be an issue (and prob a bigger one). The only hopeful thing is that there are performance hacks appearing (speculative decoding and prefill) that seem to start improving inference speed once getting implemented, so I am mildly hopeful.

(I must also iterate that my understanding is not very deep either)

Re: Qwen 3.6 27B is the sweet spot for local development

#153
post #20

None of the examples reflect 'real work', at least not what I'd consider real work. Being able to nail a zero-shot greenfield project is relatively easy even for a small model. There's not much context to build up and it can fall back to similar examples in the training data easily. So long as you're not asking it to invent something wholly new it'll probably manage. The real test is whether or not it can work with y…

I don't use local models but have you tried augmenting the model with code intelligence MCPs like https://github.com/DeusData/codebase-memory-mcp ?

Re: Qwen 3.6 27B is the sweet spot for local development

#154

I feel like I'm going insane seeing people buy these 128gb MBP for thousands of dollars to run models that are objectively much worse than SOTA and spending so much more. The amount spent on a 128gb M5 MAX can buy you a damned new car here. What the hell am I missing? Are developers in other countries living in such different worlds? (I'm aware the price is, in absolute terms, more expensive where I live compared to…

> Are developers in other countries living in such different worlds?

Yes. Your people earn an order of magnitude less income than Americans.

Re: Qwen 3.6 27B is the sweet spot for local development

#155
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The maths there is pretty undeniable, but it is not where I'd make the split. Having a machine that can run some modest local LLMs, like the Gemma 4 12B, is really worth it. I don't know how much serious hands-free agentic coding I will ever do on my MacBook alone, but I do know that I would not have got so far into understanding this without tinkering with local models, llama.cpp, LM Studio, and LM Studio and all th…

> Having a machine that can run some modest local LLMs, like the Gemma 4 12B, is really worth it. Cloud models are (much) faster, they don't consume so much power/generate heat, they have much bigger (LLM) context, they're much more precise and they have a much wider (engineering) context of the given problem. Except privacy and use cases that are blocked by cloud models (e.g. reverse engineering), local LLMs are cur…

[deleted]

Re: Qwen 3.6 27B is the sweet spot for local development

#156

I feel like I'm going insane seeing people buy these 128gb MBP for thousands of dollars to run models that are objectively much worse than SOTA and spending so much more. The amount spent on a 128gb M5 MAX can buy you a damned new car here. What the hell am I missing? Are developers in other countries living in such different worlds? (I'm aware the price is, in absolute terms, more expensive where I live compared to…

I also don't understand why people in this price bracket are buying Mac laptops instead of desktop computers with GPUs? Just to flex that it's portable?

I think it is because desktop computers with GPUs with enough VRAM to run interesting models are insanely expensive, hard to source and consume a lot of electricity and dissipate a lot of heat.

Re: Qwen 3.6 27B is the sweet spot for local development

#157
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The maths there is pretty undeniable, but it is not where I'd make the split. Having a machine that can run some modest local LLMs, like the Gemma 4 12B, is really worth it. I don't know how much serious hands-free agentic coding I will ever do on my MacBook alone, but I do know that I would not have got so far into understanding this without tinkering with local models, llama.cpp, LM Studio, and LM Studio and all th…

> Having a machine that can run some modest local LLMs, like the Gemma 4 12B, is really worth it. Cloud models are (much) faster, they don't consume so much power/generate heat, they have much bigger (LLM) context, they're much more precise and they have a much wider (engineering) context of the given problem. Except privacy and use cases that are blocked by cloud models (e.g. reverse engineering), local LLMs are cur…

[deleted]

Re: Qwen 3.6 27B is the sweet spot for local development

#158
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just got Claude to download and install all the models and servers and agents and prepare all the launch scripts for me... no need to learn, just ask it to do it for you

Then what is the point of ddalex?

I think if you really don't feel the need to know the "why" of everything, sometimes this might be the right approach. It is quick, pragmatic, gets you started.

Maybe my biggest problem with the world of agentic AI, and the reason I am putting myself through learning it the way I am, is that the need to know the "why" of everything is so fundamental to me, that I don't know if there is any point to me without it.

So this is really the only way I know how to proceed.

Re: Qwen 3.6 27B is the sweet spot for local development

#159
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just got Claude to download and install all the models and servers and agents and prepare all the launch scripts for me... no need to learn, just ask it to do it for you

> no need to learn, just ask it to do it for you And that's how skills die.

When's the last time you shoed a horse?

The reason I delegate so much of local LLM installation and administration to Claude Code is simply because there's no point learning practical things that will work completely differently in a couple of years, or in memorizing procedures that I'll forget long before I need to perform them again.

No longer having to sweat all the details is a Good Thing, not a Bad Thing.

Re: Qwen 3.6 27B is the sweet spot for local development

#160
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having a machine that can run some modest local LLMs, like the Gemma 4 12B, is really worth it. Cloud models are (much) faster, they don't consume so much power/generate heat, they have much bigger (LLM) context, they're much more precise and they have a much wider (engineering) context of the given problem. Except privacy and use cases that are blocked by cloud models (e.g. reverse engineering), local LLMs are cur…

Again, I would not argue against any of this. And I can't say that I won't switch to openrouter (even just for the same models) at some point. But one of the things I have found about my own process learning is that some lessons only come to you when you make yourself available to them. And if that means doing things the difficult way, that is what you should do.

Difficult... and wastefully expensive
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