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Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

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Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#711

Post by yiyingzhang »

infinite_spin wrote: post #246
yiyingzhang wrote: post #199

As a university professor, I honestly don't understand the point of grading. Who will look at and care about grades? Likely company HR. But then why should we (professors) do the screening for companies for free? Also, grades have long been inflated to a point we might as well just give everyone an A and let companies figure out how to select people.

Grading is to provide your students with a goal, one that isn't so high-minded as "the goal is education". The human mind uses a "reward system", within a feedback cycle. If you want to do away with that, just because it's what you prefer, then you're ignoring the reality of being human.

Unfortunately, most students today just want to find the easiest way to get a good grade. The percentage of students truly want to learn is very low. For the most, they'd prefer instructors who feed them with exam problems. This is very sad, but true.

Another issue is with the curriculum and course structure, which should long been updated. But that's another rabbit hole on its own, especially in public universities with a big hierarchy of system. The sad truth is professors have no passion in teaching outdated curriculum, and students have no desire to learn.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#712

Post by jason_oster »

anthonypasq wrote: post #670
azangru wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And then please, please test for prompting with challenging assignments that would usually be beyond a student's skills Does this mean you will requre all students to pay for a subscription to an llm provider?

does this mean that every student will need to pay a computer manufacturer to finish university?

Or pay publishers for textbooks?

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#713

Post by Yossarrian22 »

peterbell_nyc wrote: post #637
sombragris wrote: post #606

I was born in 1970. My teenage years were in the 1980s, in coincidence with the emergence of the home computer. I had a Timex-Sinclair 1000, then a C64, then a C128. One of my main forces that drove myself to learn computers was (besides games) the ability to produce text that was clearly written and readable, thanks to word processors and printers, because my handwriting was abysmal, and I got tired very quickly whi…

The problem isn't the AI - it's the assessments. It used to be that shipping a large, well-researched essay with multiple citations was proof of work. Now it's proof of prompting, not learning or effort. If you want to test for memorization, you need a live test to do so. If you want to test for comprehension and understanding, require sessions with a tutoring AI and grade the level of comprehension exhibited. And th…

>require sessions with a tutoring AI and grade the level of comprehension exhibited.

What fresh hell is this?

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#714

Post by customguy »

recursive wrote: post #682
jyounker wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developing fine motor control for cursive is actually improving cerebellar function. It turns out that the cerebellum is a general "organ" for fine control and synchronization of neural function across the brain. It is implicated in: * Reading and responding to other people's emotions. * Emotional regulation. * Generalized sequencing. * Musical ability. * Counting. * Following patterns. While you may see it as a wast…

It's hard for me to imagine how fine motor control applies to cursive in a way that doesn't apply to block writing.

One kid in my school didn't write cursive, but wrote block letters so beautifully, it looked near printed. And he was probably faster than most. He also played the piano since young age and is a professional pianist now, so yeah :)

So I would totally put it on the same level, theoretically. That is, you can write block letters with just as much skill and care as you can cursive, I think. Just like you can write cursive by just doing squiggly lines (as doctors write prescriptions).

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#715

Post by red75prime »

sureglymop wrote: post #460
recursivedoubts wrote: post #57

In the AI era, tests are going to have to be in person and hand written. I have written an article on how I have adjusted my classes to the situation: https://htmx.org/essays/universities-and-ai/ Ironically, I think the AI era may make university degrees a better signal of the intellectual abilities of students due to the presence of pre-computer infrastructure like large lecture halls, industrial-scale copiers, etc.

As a student, I have no issue doing oral exams or written exams without notes. I mean I'm there to learn and out of curiosity so I like that challenge... I truly don't understand how people can sign up for a degree and then have to cheat? Must feel torturous to endure a class you're not even interested in.

I wonder if messages like "there's no such thing as gifted children"[1], create a situation where if a student struggles to keep up with their peers, they might conclude that their peers have unfair advantages.

[1] https://www.brunel.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/articles/There...

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#716

Post by janalsncm »

Blahah wrote: post #485
janalsncm wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Students aren’t optimizing for what is best for society. They are optimizing for themselves, which almost always means getting a job. The credential is a prerequisite but skills are a differentiator. Problem is, not all skills are equal. Amazon isn’t going to ask you about your opinions on The Illiad , they are going to check if you can write an efficient algorithm to rob houses or merge sorted linked lists.

The system design questions are (at least): 1. What is this education intended to optimise for? 2. What are the various participants (including students) optimising for? 3. What aligns 1 and 2?

The fundamental issue is that for almost all students, college is really job training in academic clothing. Universities will never admit this, and some professors delude themselves into believing it’s not true. But it’s the only explanation for why students would take enormous loans rather than simply get jobs.

But why else would you have a bunch of students join a class and cheat? Something like 22 out of the 27 perfect midterm students didn’t show up to the final? Obviously these people are not in it for the joy of learning.

So the answers to your questions are 1) learning 2) job-worthiness 3) measurements of 1 which accurately and plausibly reflect 2.

If a course does not plausibly reflect job readiness, or students’ grades do not reflect competence in the subject then the course must be fixed.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#717

Post by jason_oster »

atakan_gurkan wrote: post #604
jnwatson wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what's wrong with pen and paper?

The grading cannot be automated easily and becomes time consuming.

It can, but you don't want to hear about it: Hand writing recognition is an application of AI.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#718

Post by userbinator »

Arainach wrote: post #386
userbinator wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good first step, a pre-filter to more demanding questions.

There's no such thing as "filtering" in academics. You don't get to kick out the students who didn't do well on the multiple choice and only proceed with the ones who scored highly.

WTF. OK, clearly you're contributing to the problem too. Yes, there is such a thing as passing and failing, regardless what your ideology has brainwashed you to believe.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#719

Post by userbinator »

skrebbel wrote: post #597
userbinator wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Do you care at all about the reputation of your university? I worked briefly in post-secondary CS education a long time ago, before academia turned into the ideological warzone it is today, and if I said such a thing, I would've probably lost my job. Also, grades have long been inflated Then stop inflating them. This is also what standardised testing is good for --- but no surprise, so many are against it becaus…

I can't marry this: > before academia turned into the ideological warzone it is today with this: > and if I said such a thing, I would've probably lost my job Weren't universities supposed to be exactly the kind of place where unorthodox ideas could be freely said out loud? To fire an educator for saying the wrong opinion about education doesn't make your university sound like the great place you suggest it was. Educ…

"Have an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out."

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#720

Post by spydr »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #57

In the AI era, tests are going to have to be in person and hand written. I have written an article on how I have adjusted my classes to the situation: https://htmx.org/essays/universities-and-ai/ Ironically, I think the AI era may make university degrees a better signal of the intellectual abilities of students due to the presence of pre-computer infrastructure like large lecture halls, industrial-scale copiers, etc.

I graduated from the University of Washington about 8 years ago. Even then we had to write our code on paper for exams. Every missed semi colon was marked. This isn’t a new practice and I’m surprised more colleges haven’t already been doing this regardless of AI.
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