Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

nonogra.ph

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

511–520 of 663 posts

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#511

Post by abustamam »

onion2k wrote: post #10

If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin. People struggle to consider the second-, third-, and nth-order effects of anything so asking them to consider what else might happen if we bring in laws and technical mechanisms to 'protect the children' is unfortunately too a big leap for a lot of them. Most people are bad at spo…

This is an excellent point. I'm self educated while my wife holds multiple degrees and a masters. Yet when she saw a news article about age verification (something I've been following for years thanks to HN) she was like "this is good" and I'm like "why" and the ensuing discussion made it clear that she didn't really think about the repercussions of age verification, just that seemingly smart people in positions of power seemed to think it was a good idea.

And I think this is dangerous. We have smart people like my wife who would probably vote Yes on this if it came to our ballot, because the smart people who wrote the measure were able to control the narrative.

Not that I'm so smart, mind you. I just follow HN and EFF so I'm exposed to this kind of stuff. I'd probably be blind to such things outside of the tech world. I'd love to say that I'd think of nth order effects when at the ballot but honestly maybe I won't.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#512

Post by wartywhoa23 »

onion2k wrote: post #10

If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin. People struggle to consider the second-, third-, and nth-order effects of anything so asking them to consider what else might happen if we bring in laws and technical mechanisms to 'protect the children' is unfortunately too a big leap for a lot of them. Most people are bad at spo…

> If we taught systems thinking in schools ...

This plus methods of narrative steering and psychological manipulation in general.

Though I can't see this happenning while the transnational cartel is still at the helm.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#513

Post by hattmall »

criddell wrote: post #485
caseysoftware wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "If we taught systems thinking in schools" In the US, the public school system can barely teach basic reading and math. And the teachers don't appear to understand 2nd or 3rd order thinking themselves so therefore are unlikely to be able to teach it. Teaching systems thinking may be an effective solution but it needs an effective delivery system to test it.

Have you talked to any high school students or teachers lately? The ones I have (via my kids) are all articulate, thoughtful, and kind. It gives me a lot of hope for the future.

I mean, not surprisingly, this is entirely geographic and system dependent. Do your high school teachers (or elementary) have to wear body cameras, practice administering narcan, and how to clear the chamber of a discovered gun, or do they get to 3D print parts for their classroom and go on field trips?

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#514

Post by itubaj »

rini17 wrote: post #453
mpalmer wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of expression is inseparable from the right to privacy. Should journalists be forced to reveal their sources if the subject of a claim sues for defamation?

Freedom of expression is not absolute and never was. Should everyone just shrug off anonymous hoaxes and hate speech?

Yes. If, unfortunately, I need to live in only one of two scenarios, i.e.:

1. I need to identify myself for everything on the internet because of said "hoaxes" and "hate speech";

2. I don't need to identify myself anywhere on the internet, and let go of said "hoaxes" and "hate speech", but can have the right of saying anything that I need to say without fearing for my safety and the safety of my relatives due to the government;

Then yes, I would prefer the second option without a blink. Unfortunately, for what we have seen in the last few decades, there is no intermediary option. The proverb is true: give them an inch, and they will take a mile.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#515

Post by phendrenad2 »

btbuildem wrote: post #33

This is a reminder to curate and prune all your past social media contribution, because when this goes thru, you KNOW they will apply it retroactively. You'd loathe to lose your cushy job over a moment of lucid honesty back in 2011.

I can see it now: boards of directors will only hire CEOs from the amish population, it's the only way to avoid criticism.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#516

Post by wartywhoa23 »

hvs wrote: post #468
goalieca wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember the patriot act.

The Patriot Act is perfect example of the adage, "Never let a crisis go to waste."

Or rather "Always construct crises proportionate to the desired delta of the current Overton window's position".

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#517

Post by wartywhoa23 »

ShinyLeftPad wrote: post #491
drtgh wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But chat control and age verification are different things. Although they appear to be different different things at first sight, they share the same agenda and objective, mass surveillance and identification of the citizens. Once the door is opened, it can be expected that things will not end there; Politicians and their patrons will exploit this data under "committees" (and of course be excluded from such surveil…

Well, here's a case when police did their work. A massive international bust happened because the police was able to trick gangs to use an app that was not actually e2ee. And chances that it happens again are almost zero.

And yet another notorious international bust just didn't happen recently despite the fact that the island loungers not only didn't use e2ee but actively made their crimes abundantly obvious to the public.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#518

Post by starik36 »

jmyeet wrote: post #476
Nevermark wrote: post #379

Age verification starts the gating of Internet access by governments. Any site, with any concern about age of user liability, is likely to adopt the practice. Strong laws, sold on their face value safety benefits, will increase that liability. You won’t see any laws removing or limiting that liability. The trend will be many more sites becoming government-gated, than we are imagining now. Beyond surveillance, it’s a…

That might be an argument if it wasn’t already happening. US social media platforms already kowtow to domestic and foreign policy and you need look no further than the suppression by Google and Meta of content about Palestine. What’s fascinating to me of that there are people who win vehemently oppose age verification yet have no absolutely no problem with anti-BDS laws, Gaza suppression, etc. Or worse, they’ll suppo…

> suppression by Google and Meta of content about Palestine

That is nonsense. This type of content appears on my TikTok/Reels feeds nonstop even if I don't interact with it.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#520

Post by intended »

MaKey wrote: post #474
intended wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the entire reason we are here is due to the fact that harms to kids are on the other end of the scale. There is no “win” here, which doesn’t have the issue coming back. Dismissing the harms only makes privacy advocacy irrelevant to voters. Defending privacy effectively means plugging the root cause it is being encroached. This is being articulated as a defense of privacy when it originates from social media h…

> Because the entire reason we are here is due to the fact that harms to kids are on the other end of the scale. If that's a "fact", where is the proof? What harms are there that can only be addressed with age verification and not in any other way? > Dismissing the harms [...] This is a strawman you've created. > Defending privacy effectively means plugging the root cause it is being encroached. Defending privacy mea…

? > If that's a "fact", where is the proof? What harms are there that can only be addressed with age verification and not in any other way?

> Social media can be dangerous to kids, I don't see anyone disputing that. The dispute is around the solution to this issue.

It may not be what you intend, but that is how the dispute is going to be rendered.

I have no dispute with you over the conclusion of your comment. The meat and potatoes is in the shape of the solution.

Post reply on HN