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Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

danielcordova.me

21–30 of 168 posts

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#21
post #4

Tbh, the installer was inevitable after systemd integrated a bootloader, crafted a paritioning scheme for autodiscovery, took over user and home directory management, and topped it off with an updater and "system extensions" layering system that some immutable distros are using. I'm not saying any of this is particularly bad but it's been very clear fot a while that systemd just wants to be an OS. With immutable syst…

The various Red Hat affiliated projects have so much more reason to call themselves the "OS" than GNU at this point. A Linux system with systemd for the init, systemd-networkd and NetworkManager for networking, GNOME for the desktop, systemd-boot for the bootloader, RPM/DNF as the package manager, etc. probably contains orders of magnitude more Red Hat code than GNU code even if the system uses glibc and GNU coreutils.

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#22
post #7

I find it fascinating how different people are with respect to being able to see the future, or at least caring about it. I find many people are like lumbering beasts in a forest complaining when a twig pokes them in the eye. While other saw the forest from miles away and just went around it. Gentoo is still home to a sizeable number of users who noped out of systemd more than 10 years ago. This is exactly the kind o…

Because if you dare criticise or say "I encountered a bug" the mob will get you.

Your comment is very poorly phrased, but, yeah, I've found both the SystemD [0] maintainers and boosters to be very, very unwelcoming to claims that the way something SystemD does is incompatible with a totally reasonable and long-standing way to use a computer.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, SystemD is great... until you hit a bug born of its accidental complexity, or you find can't do something because the SystemD maintainers -sometimes suddenly- decided that they didn't want to let people do it anymore.

[0] This is shorthand for "The Systemd Project", not a slur against it. It sucks shit that systemd(1) and the project it's part of share the same name... it's very confusing. [1]

[1] For a real-world example of the sort of conversation this confusion causes, check out [2]

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48716382>

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#23
This makes the mistake of confusing systemd the service manager and systemd the project. This is an easy mistake to make given they have the same name.

The systemd service manager does not have an installer, systemd-sysinstall is a separate tool that's part of the systemd project.

> systemd already integrated it, why (age verification)

systemd has not integrated age verification. All that's been discussed is a simple field to allow a user to register a DoB and an way for services to validate the user is over a certain age.

You could arguably already do this by having a DoB field for the user, but that'd involve giving applications your full DoB which I'm sure is distasteful for many.

> usual "fight" against non-sense laws

Because developers have to follow laws like everyone else?

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#24

I find it fascinating how different people are with respect to being able to see the future, or at least caring about it. I find many people are like lumbering beasts in a forest complaining when a twig pokes them in the eye. While other saw the forest from miles away and just went around it. Gentoo is still home to a sizeable number of users who noped out of systemd more than 10 years ago. This is exactly the kind o…

I enjoy using systemd but I'm glad Gentoo exists and I'm thankful that people are using and maintaining alternatives. Diverse ecosystems are not just good, they are necessary.

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#25
post #18
post #4

Tbh, the installer was inevitable after systemd integrated a bootloader, crafted a paritioning scheme for autodiscovery, took over user and home directory management, and topped it off with an updater and "system extensions" layering system that some immutable distros are using. I'm not saying any of this is particularly bad but it's been very clear fot a while that systemd just wants to be an OS. With immutable syst…

Can't these features be toggled?

They're separate programs and system services which all more or less just do their own thing, just developed under the systemd umbrella. So it can't be "toggled", you can just not use the parts of systemd you don't want.

But it's meant to work as a cohesive system when everything in systemd is used together.

FWIW, I think it's great that someone is trying to make a coherent set of system services for Linux. Things tend to interoperate better when they're explicitly written to work together than when every component is meant to be hacked to work with arbitrary other services through shell script soup.

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#26
The article makes one key mistake, in that it compares systemd to openrc. Aka some monster-system with billion features, to a fairly small system that juts relates to initializing a few things.

The whole debate about systemd has always been very dishonest from the systemd devs. If you have 3 million lines of code, for instance, and offer 5000 features, just to give out semi-random numbers, then every alternative with, say, 100.000 lines of code and only 50 features, will lose out by definition. Systemd has NEVER been solely or primarily been an "init" system. People need to stop buying the propaganda 1:1. That includes self-promo.

It is the same with age sniffing; some still believe it is about protecting kids. Then they were flabbergasted when governments - who suspiciously smell like corporate-controlled governments by the way, in particular in the UK - declare total war against VPNs. The excuse they use is not convincing at all, IF you buy into the assumption that this is about kids (which it is not).

On the other hand, when systemd decided to support age sniffing (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/40954), I guess they went a step too far. People who weren't against systemd, look at it differently now. After all why is Poettering so defensive about systemd supporting age sniffing? All that tasty data that is to be amassed. Some private entities love that data. You have become the product.

As for "alternatives" to systemd, which is a misnomer IMO: I found that all the alternatives are pretty bad too. The best option is to try to stay as lean as possible without losing things that are objectively useful. Any init system that depends on shell scripts, already is a failure by design. (Systemd's unit files are also a failure; and the lack of transparency too. It is like the ultimate trojan horse.)

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#27
post #9
post #2

systemd desperately needs competition. it isnt just that it became a dependency for every low level service and a potential vector for privacy invasion, it's also janky to use.

where is it janky?

The output devices (/dev/stdXXX) being sockets-only constantly trip people up.

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#28

I'm confused... isn't Devuan exactly this?

Well - it is an alternative to debian and in many ways is debian. But the counter-question is: why should debian users HAVE to use systemd? This is a much more fundamental question. Devuan solved it via forking. I think the proper way to handle this is to be able to offer both. I think gentoo went that approach. Debian went the "my-way-or-the-highway" route, which objectively is worse, even if understandable (less to maintain; see LFS/BLFS submitting to systemd finally in 2026: https://old.reddit.com/r/Gentoo/comments/1qy4xsc/might_gento... and https://www.phoronix.com/news/LFS-Dropping-SysVinit)

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#29
post #12

You do not have to use all resources that are under the systemd umbrella. That's just BS, sorry. And prod deployments breaking... Well I guess that never happened with those best-managed sysv init scripts? Guys, pick your fights reasonably.

Agreed. But you still need to know what to enable/disable, so more complexity is the outcome.

> And prod deployments breaking... Well I guess that never happened with those best-managed sysv init scripts?

Which of these two has the larger surface area? I would assume there are more problems in systemd simply because it has a lot more code.

> Guys, pick your fights reasonably.

I don't see what is not reasonable here at all. Can you explain this? In particular I would like to see your explanation how more code means less issues, all other things considered being equal. And that's just the code - there are many additional issues, documentation, maintenance and so forth.

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#30
post #25
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't these features be toggled?

They're separate programs and system services which all more or less just do their own thing, just developed under the systemd umbrella. So it can't be "toggled", you can just not use the parts of systemd you don't want. But it's meant to work as a cohesive system when everything in systemd is used together. FWIW, I think it's great that someone is trying to make a coherent set of system services for Linux. Things te…

It's great that the same someone has formed a company called Amutable which has the sole purpose of converting Linux to a locked-down immutable OS where the users doesn't have the key.

Also it's interesting that a set of simple interfaces have worked for so long. Maybe they did something wrong that it didn't break?

See: https://www.amutable.com

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