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EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

patrick-breyer.de

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Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#381

Post by palata »

throwawayffffas wrote: post #358
palata wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not like internet is made of a few select providers In practice it is. Almost all messaging happens on a few apps. > also the most widely available apps already comply to the single police request to access conversations from suspects That is not true: Signal is widely available and doesn't do that. WhatsApp probably doesn't do it either. Don't get me wrong: I am against ChatControl as well. I believe that sec…

The whole point of end to end encryption is that providers cannot comply with police request to access conversations. A properly secured system would make it impossible without compromise of your device. Now i don't know what signal does, but I am almost certain WhatsApp can just lie about your contacts keys and man in the middle the connection.

> Now i don't know what signal does

That makes me question how much you know about end-to-end encrypted messengers, because Signal is the gold standard.

> I am almost certain WhatsApp can just lie about your contacts keys and man in the middle the connection.

The problem there is that WhatsApp is not open source, so you can't check. So obviously you have to trust. But there are many, many employees who have access to the WhatsApp sources, so if it was not implementing what it says it is, chances are that someone would have said it. Also thanks to the EU DMA we have some protocol published by WhatsApp.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#382

Post by jvuygbbkuurx »

tiahura wrote: post #85
jvuygbbkuurx wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why let a middleman rentseek?

Where is the rentseeking in that example? Rentseeking is the expenditure of resources to influence the rules so you can charge rent. The sock merchant in the example isn’t.

I meant it like a retailer can buy it without the charge in bulk with a discount, but since the consumers can't, the retailer can increase the price. So the consumer pays more because of a middleman charging the difference.

Ideally there is enough competition between retailers, but obviously that is not true if the consumers are buying from china in the first place.

Instead of adding a fee, you should make the bulk imported item cheaper. If you can't compete then something is wrong, maybe something in single import being subsidized like air mail? If it's not then it's a more efficient system.

And I'm strictly talking about exact same products produced in china, not equivalent products of worse quality.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#383

Post by monssooon »

mantas wrote: post #302
monssooon wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denmark is a world leading producer of windmills

Meanwhile local solar industry is loosing to Chinese at fast pace. Batteries industry ain’t looking good either.

The point was the conflict of interest. But yes what you said could maybe even make the conflict even more pronounced

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#384

Post by mantas »

monssooon wrote: post #383
mantas wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile local solar industry is loosing to Chinese at fast pace. Batteries industry ain’t looking good either.

The point was the conflict of interest. But yes what you said could maybe even make the conflict even more pronounced

IMO it's conflict of interest of some short-sighted naive idealists vs people who want to get stuff done.

For example, solar. Shit ton of euromoneys is poured into subsidies. But those subsidies are not geofenced. Thus vast majority of people go for chinese stuff. It could have been much better to subsidise locally produced components only. Then price would be +/- the same.

Now chinese components are dirt cheap with all the subsidies. I myself went for chinese components, because break-even period was like 5 vs 10 years. I'll just pihole the inverter from calling home once I figure out how to get some statistics without the manufacturer's app.

I guess some people decided it's better to get 2-3x more solar installed power ASAP rather than prop up the local solar industry.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#385

Post by raxxorraxor »

throwawayffffas wrote: post #356
mike_hearn wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "keep asking until they say yes" strategy is by design and has been a common tactic used by the EU power centers in the past. See the way the Treaty of Lisbon was rejected in referendums, and then people were just made to vote again. Or the way the British pro-EU faction proclaimed in 2016 that Leave/Remain was a once in a generation vote to settle the issue for all time, then immediately started agitating for a…

All the quotes are clearly talking about closer integration which no one is hiding is a stated goal of the European Union. It's right there in the original treaties `an ever closer union`. If you don't like it leave, but the rest have all committed to that a long time ago. The chat control thing has nothing to do with all of the above, it's just a bit of legislation. The whole "we will vote on it again and again unti…

No, people didn't commit to it. That is pretty much the core of the criticism. It will never be a federation and while economic integration is worthwhile, it should be reduced to very clear boundaries.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#386

Post by joe_mamba »

throwawayffffas wrote: post #356
mike_hearn wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "keep asking until they say yes" strategy is by design and has been a common tactic used by the EU power centers in the past. See the way the Treaty of Lisbon was rejected in referendums, and then people were just made to vote again. Or the way the British pro-EU faction proclaimed in 2016 that Leave/Remain was a once in a generation vote to settle the issue for all time, then immediately started agitating for a…

All the quotes are clearly talking about closer integration which no one is hiding is a stated goal of the European Union. It's right there in the original treaties `an ever closer union`. If you don't like it leave, but the rest have all committed to that a long time ago. The chat control thing has nothing to do with all of the above, it's just a bit of legislation. The whole "we will vote on it again and again unti…

>All the quotes are clearly talking about closer integration

Are you saying "the ends justify the means" of this "closer integration"? With that logic, Hitler's end goal was also closer integration of Europe's countries once he conquered them all.

>If you don't like it leave

Impossible to leave now when you joined 20+ years ago, when the EU was something completely different, which now grew beyond what you signed up for, without fucking your economy. It's called a rug pull with a dead man's switch. Try to leave and we make sure we all blow up.

>They have much larger problems to deal with, like [...] planning for when Trump inevitably invades Cuba

Why is Cuba a bigger issue for Ursula than what's happening in the EU? LAst time I checked Cuba is on a different continent and an insignificant trading partner of the EU.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#387

Post by joe_mamba »

monssooon wrote: post #238
blfr wrote: post #2

First, why does the EU leadership refuse to learn from falling behind the US economically and technologically, most starkly with AI recently, and their failures in regulating the Internet, most annoyingly the cookie law? And why aren't you, the EU citizen, more annoyed by it? I see a lot of pro-EU content on this site when they're terrible on both tech and entrepreneurship. Second, what's up with Denmmark pushing for…

I think Denmark is one of the most surveiled countries. And with the most compliant population. They call it trust... Denmark is not the fairytale they try to market them selves as. This is closer to their true color in my opinion. You could also try to look up the cases with former and current politicians in dk who actually have gotten caught perpetrating the very thing chat control is said to stop. I'm to afraid of…

Denmark would also sterilize indigenous Greenland population and immigrants back in the 1950s-1960s. THey have a dark side few people know about.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#388

Post by joe_mamba »

vrganj wrote: post #247
logicchains wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>While the EU is not perfect and surely needs improvement in many areas, it is still better than not having it. Would you still believe this if Chat Control got though? What good did the EU bring that's good enough to make up for the badness of everyone in Europe having all their private digital communications constantly scanned?

> What good did the EU bring that's good enough to make up for the badness of everyone in Europe having all their private digital communications constantly scanned? Peace in Europe. You have to remember that the EU is fundamentally the world's most successful peace project, founded after the horrors of WW2 to make war in Europe not just unthinkable, but materially impossible. Before the EU, we had centuries of consta…

>Peace in Europe.

That peace in Europe didn't start because of the EU, it started because western Europe was conquered by the US and eastern Europe by USSR so they were a bit too incapacitated to fight each other under those conditions and given the much bigger issues they had at the time.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#389

Post by joe_mamba »

GTP wrote: post #151
logicchains wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>While the EU is not perfect and surely needs improvement in many areas, it is still better than not having it. Would you still believe this if Chat Control got though? What good did the EU bring that's good enough to make up for the badness of everyone in Europe having all their private digital communications constantly scanned?

Yes, definitely. Just as an example, my country wouldn't have a lot of consumer protection laws we now have thanks to the EU. As a concrete example, there used to be a single phone service provider acting as a monopolist and we had the highest phone bills in the EU. When this started to change, it still wasn't possible to keep the same phone number when switching providers, which is a huge thing for businesses and fr…

Which country are you referring to?

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#390

Post by vrganj »

joe_mamba wrote: post #388
vrganj wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What good did the EU bring that's good enough to make up for the badness of everyone in Europe having all their private digital communications constantly scanned? Peace in Europe. You have to remember that the EU is fundamentally the world's most successful peace project, founded after the horrors of WW2 to make war in Europe not just unthinkable, but materially impossible. Before the EU, we had centuries of consta…

>Peace in Europe. That peace in Europe didn't start because of the EU, it started because western Europe was conquered by the US and eastern Europe by USSR so they were a bit too incapacitated to fight each other under those conditions and given the much bigger issues they had at the time.

I didn't say it started because of the EU. It lasted because of it. See the Schuman declaration I quoted below.
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