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TOP500 at ISC’26: We have a New Number 1 Supercomputer

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Re: TOP500 at ISC’26: We have a New Number 1 Supercomputer

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TOP500 can be done with inexpensive silicon. It is more about a willingness to aggregate enough hardware in one place. As a benchmark, it tells you almost nothing about computing power or scalability for other applications because it doesn't exercise the bottlenecks most high-scale applications have.

> TOP500 can be done with inexpensive silicon. Didn't the DoD at one point build a 1k+ PS3 cluster based on their multi-core chip and had a mini supercomputer CotS? I remember Sony not liking that people were buying them for other things rather than gaming (iirc they were losing money on hardware at the time) so they bricked linux support soon after.

> Didn't the DoD at one point build a 1k+ PS3 cluster based on their multi-core chip and had a mini supercomputer CotS?

The Air Force did (Condor) and it hit #33 on the 2010 Top500.

Re: TOP500 at ISC’26: We have a New Number 1 Supercomputer

#52

TOP500 hasn't been a particularly useful measure of practical computing power in modern systems for many years because what it measures isn't a significant bottleneck in most real systems. It has become a measure of how much money someone is willing to spend for bragging rights. (HPCG is better in that it is a bit more bandwidth focused but still pretty narrow.) Most companies with huge systems don't participate.

This seems like a "sour grapes" comment.

The new Chinese supercomputer beats all US supercomputers also in HPCG, not only in Linpack.

What is remarkable is that this was done despite the US attempts of sabotaging HPC in China by "sanctions".

This uses custom CPUs designed in China, which implement an Armv9-A ISA with SME (scalable matrix extension) and which use fast HBM memory. These CPUs are fast enough that they do not need any GPUs for exceeding the throughput of the American supercomputers, which use GPUs. This is like in the Japanese Fugaku, which was the first to implement the Armv8-A ISA with SVE, but which now is rather old.

Like in all CPU-based supercomputers, for this new Chinese supercomputer it is much easier to reach a higher percentage of the theoretical maximum throughput, when solving any problem. So for most practical problems it will be faster than a GPU-based supercomputer that would have the same theoretical maximum throughput.

So this is a much more interesting supercomputer than those built by just buying some HPC racks from HPE (Cray). Because China was forbidden to buy the American equipment, they had to innovate and design their own. Eventually they made something better than what they could not buy.

Re: TOP500 at ISC’26: We have a New Number 1 Supercomputer

#53
post #20

Would the AI “GW-scale” clusters be able to run the Top500 benchmarks meaningfully? And what might be the outcome?

Yes, they should score well on Linpack as long as they use Ozaki emulation.

No, that is too slow.

Most claims about the cost of emulating FP64 on GPUs are wrong, because they assume that only the significand of floating-point numbers must be extended.

In reality it is even more important to extend the exponent, because with the exponent of FP32 overflows would be much too frequent in scientific/technical computations to accomplish anything.

The minimum FP64 emulation on FP32-capable GPUs requires 3 numbers per emulated FP64, which may be 3 FP32 numbers, or the exponent may be an Int32, if that works better on the target GPU. An emulated FP64 operation is likely to be at least 20 times slower than a FP32 operation.

That is much faster than the 1:64 ratio provided in hardware by an NVIDIA GPU, but even on the fastest FP32 GPUs it is too slow to compete with CPUs, in a professional setting.

FP64 emulation on a GPU can be useful only in a home computer, which may have a rather weak CPU and increasing the FP64 throughput using the GPU can be done at no additional cost, so it can be worthwhile.

Re: TOP500 at ISC’26: We have a New Number 1 Supercomputer

#54

Would the AI “GW-scale” clusters be able to run the Top500 benchmarks meaningfully? And what might be the outcome?

No.

The AI oriented GPUs or TPUs have either weak FP64 throughput or they may not support FP64 at all.

They can compete neither with CPUs nor with GPUs that have good FP64 support, like the AMD CDNA datacenter GPUs, which occupy all the top places among American supercomputers.

NVIDIA has stopped improving the FP64 throughput even in their "datacenter" GPUs, abandoning this nowadays smaller market to AMD.

The AMD CDNA GPUs can be used for both HPC and AI, so only an AI cluster based on them could have dual use, but most who want AI choose NVIDIA.

Re: TOP500 at ISC’26: We have a New Number 1 Supercomputer

#55

Is it the first to reach 2 exaflops?

Yes.

The fastest US supercomputer, El Capitan at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, reaches only 1.809 exaflops, while this reaches 2.198, 22% higher.

On the HPCG benchmark, which is more strongly influenced by memory bandwidth, the advance over the GPU-based El Capitan is even greater, of 26.4%.

Re: TOP500 at ISC’26: We have a New Number 1 Supercomputer

#56
post #30

Why are they not using GPUs? is it use cases that don't suit GPUs or because of the limitations they are imposing on themselves to use SMIC domestic chips?

If you can avoid GPUs, that is preferable.

The reason is that with GPUs it is far more difficult to reach a great percentage of the maximum theoretical throughput. Most GPU programs reach only a very small fraction of what is theoretically possible, and in the best cases one may reach something like 50% to 60% of the maximum.

This CPU-based supercomputer has demonstrated reaching 80% of the theoretical maximum throughput, and this is typical for CPU-based supercomputers. It is much easier to write efficient programs for CPUs.

The new custom Chinese CPUs, which use SME, the Arm Scalable Matrix Extension, are fast enough that they have beaten all GPU-based supercomputers, so there was no need to use GPUs.

Moreover these CPUs use HBM for a very fast memory interface, so in the benchmarks that depend more on memory bandwidth they have an even greater advance over the US GPU-based supercomputers. Thus there really was no point in using GPUs.

GPUs are necessary only when your CPUs are not good enough, which was not the case here.

In the recent past, the Japanese Fugaku used the same approach, of avoiding GPUs. At that time, their custom CPUs using the Armv8-A ISA with SVE were the first which used this ISA in HPC, but now that ISA variant is obsolete in comparison with the Armv9-A ISA with SME, which is implemented in these new custom Chinese CPUs.

Re: TOP500 at ISC’26: We have a New Number 1 Supercomputer

#57

TOP500 hasn't been a particularly useful measure of practical computing power in modern systems for many years because what it measures isn't a significant bottleneck in most real systems. It has become a measure of how much money someone is willing to spend for bragging rights. (HPCG is better in that it is a bit more bandwidth focused but still pretty narrow.) Most companies with huge systems don't participate.

This seems like a "sour grapes" comment. The new Chinese supercomputer beats all US supercomputers also in HPCG, not only in Linpack. What is remarkable is that this was done despite the US attempts of sabotaging HPC in China by "sanctions". This uses custom CPUs designed in China, which implement an Armv9-A ISA with SME (scalable matrix extension) and which use fast HBM memory. These CPUs are fast enough that they d…

It isn’t “sour grapes”, I remember when the HPC community largely abandoned these benchmarks two decades ago because they weren’t representative of anything real for most of them. The benchmark is a poor reflection of real workloads. There was a long period when the STREAM benchmark was the primary correlate with real-world performance for most HPC workloads but you can’t build a press release from that.

I don’t have a dog in this fight and I no longer work in HPC. Most modern workloads are severely bandwidth bound. The only aspect of the hardware that matters is bandwidth and that is not materially differentiated. The frontier is scheduler design, which is pure software and difficult computer science. HPC competitions avoid problems with a software solution because it isn’t in their interest as hardware manufacturers.

This result is impressive, sort of, but not in the way people are imagining. I was equally dismissive of the previous leader for the same reasons. For most applications, these benchmarks are legacy pagentry.

Re: TOP500 at ISC’26: We have a New Number 1 Supercomputer

#58

> Why aren’t these AI companies submitting to the TOP500 to show off their computing prowess? my knowledge is 10+ years out of date, but once upon a time if they'd chosen to, Google could have had _several_ entries in the top 10 of the TOP500 list It's just poker, they didn't want to tip their hand

Is there international value to these designations? As in, would it be worth it for the U.S. to pay a bonus to anyone who qualifies into the TOP500, to offset the cost of the run?

Most of the US systems in the TOP500 are funded by the US government. It isn’t considered a meaningful demonstration of capability by most people in the know.

Re: TOP500 at ISC’26: We have a New Number 1 Supercomputer

#59

Extremely impressive accomplishment considering they did this with Chinese interconnects and Chinese chips. This is a wake up call.

Not the first time that happened, even for China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_computers

Re: TOP500 at ISC’26: We have a New Number 1 Supercomputer

#60

TOP500 hasn't been a particularly useful measure of practical computing power in modern systems for many years because what it measures isn't a significant bottleneck in most real systems. It has become a measure of how much money someone is willing to spend for bragging rights. (HPCG is better in that it is a bit more bandwidth focused but still pretty narrow.) Most companies with huge systems don't participate.

I wonder if there would have been an opportunity to generate some finer-grained benchmarks with something like BiCGStab+ILU (or maybe CG+incomplete cholesky). Instead of CG+Gauss Seidel. The pitch being, you might have made different memory vs compute trade-offs with designing your cluster, but you should be able to select a fill-in factor for the preconditioner to suit it.

I think you could build more representative benchmarks that capture capability better. The tension is that HPC companies are pure hardware companies and you need a lot of help from software to make your hardware look good. They don’t like that. Most of our software sucks at the scales they try to benchmark.

Ironically, the related Graph500 benchmarks reflect this better. Performance is dependent more on using the hardware better than better hardware per se.

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