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Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

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Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#151

Post by baddash »

ambicapter wrote: post #131

> That’s no longer true. We’ve entered a different regime, where spending more tokens generally results in better results. We call this “compounding correctness” — the more tokens you spend on getting a task correct, the more likely you’ll get a good outcome. We talked about this a bit at the last in person Agentics meetup: Have we? Is it generally the case that the more tokens you spend, you better results you get?…

it's a huge oversimplification imo. it reminds me of someone worshipping LOC: more = better

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#152

Post by not_a_bot_4sho »

baconmania wrote: post #8

The implication that tokenmaxxing was an intentional and thoughtfully considered approach rather than blind hype-following by an overpaid manager class who are too far removed from value to understand the downsides of LLMs is hysterical beyond belief.

> overpaid manager class

Ugh. Tell me you're early in career without telling me. Sophomoric take.

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#153

Post by aurareturn »

vineyardmike wrote: post #138
aurareturn wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a +26 on my post so far so it seems like there are a lot of people who agree with me but most replies disagree with me. I suppose this is the nature of online forums - that those who disagree will take the time to reply but those who agree rarely do.

FWIW I agree with you, but it doesn't add much to the conversation to leave a comment saying so. I also agree with the comment you're replying to as well - the vitriol and anger, along with the "this is just another blockchain bubble" type relies is really interesting. It's so surprising to see the variety of (negative) replies and beliefs people have, along with the general distaste/distrust for management. I guess…

It’s about power and leverage. Software engineers were seen as “gods” in a tech company. Even the crappy ones. Over the last year, really 6 months, they lost great deal of that. Now they’re seen as costs, rather than assets.

This is especially true for the devs who take the code more seriously than the business that employs them. The technical PM who knows a bit of design are suddenly the kings of the company.

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#154

Post by faangguyindia »

cyphar wrote: post #50
SR2Z wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand this take. If you're a carpentry shop that just bought power tools for the first time and you're worried that your employees are sticking with hand tools because that's what they know, then you look for sawdust. The goal isn't to have people work at converting wood into sawdust, the point is that if you wanna see if the tools are working you wanna see proof they're actually being used. I'm s…

Why would a carpentry shop buy hundreds of thousands of dollars of power tools without consulting with their employees to see what they actually need to get their job done more effectively? The logic of buying the tools then forcing the employees to use them "or else" is completely backwards in any sane world. (Of course, we've all had bosses that went to some marketing seminar and come back having been tricked^Wsold…

>Why would a carpentry shop buy hundreds of thousands of dollars of power tools without consulting with their employees to see what they actually need to get their job done more effectively? T

What happens if employees say no power tools are needed and after a few months a competition shows up with power tools and hires a bunch of noobs and beating your production numbers and sales?

Your employees simply may leave the company and work for them and learn the new culture at this new competitor.

Is there any law which prevents people from moving between companies? No? Then the promoters of that company are going to do what they think is fit to keep them in business and stay competitive. Many times they'll be wrong, sometimes they'll be right.

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#156

Post by aurareturn »

jdiff wrote: post #117
aurareturn wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and Uber was trying to recuperate what investments in data centers? Come on now. Let's not think that we are all smarter than management at these companies.

Let us also not think that management is any smarter than any of us and is playing 5D chess games we couldn't comprehend. Notably, games that they also could not articulate when they were making these decisions.

It’s so easy to comprehend that even I was able to do it. I don’t think it’s 5D chess. More like checkers. They have dumb the message down just to get developers to try.

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#157

Post by no-name-here »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #74
paulddraper wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because those power tools had just been invented and no one had experience with them. Though in theory power tools are faster than hand tools.

So do a workshop on power tools, measure their efficacy and the quality of the result, do some demonstration videos on power tools, get people to compare, seek feedback on their usage. Don't count electricity and sawdust, or you'll find people getting very good at expensively turning blocks of wood into sawdust.

Is the idea that most stubborn employees would adopt AI if their company made videos showing internal metrics that AI is better?

> Don’t count electricity and sawdust

I agree that it seems wasteful, but is there some better way to accomplish it at the scale of hundreds, or hundreds of thousands, etc? I'm personally doubtful that stubborn employees would switch even if a video provided internal metrics, videos, etc.

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#159

Post by rezonant »

seattle_spring wrote: post #100
et1337 wrote: post #77

Folks have been saying “things are different now, the agents are now compounding success instead of error” for at least a year now, but I just don’t see it. I was lucky enough to receive a weeklong $50k per head AI training from the people saying these things, and one of their few helpful concrete recommendations was to constantly clear context all the time, to avoid things going off the rails. However, I think findi…

> I was lucky enough to receive a weeklong $50k per head AI training wow! That sounds like an unbelievable grift. Who were they such that anyone could possibly think that's a worthwhile investment?

Isn't that like a day worth of tokens?

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#160

Post by CobrastanJorji »

aurareturn wrote: post #2

Tokenmaxxing was just a way to force employees to start leveraging AI in a meaningful way. For companies that have measured performance based on token spend, they can now dial it back. Employees have learned to leverage AI for things they wouldn’t have prior. Now they know what’s possible and what’s not. No one is stupid enough to always measure performance based on token spend and have unlimited budget. It was alway…

It's simpler. Management felt like employees weren't leveraging AI fast enough. They chose to measure "AI leveraging" in the easiest way they could: how many tokens each employee was using. Goodhart's Law ("When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure") immediately triggered.
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