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Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

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Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#411
post #167

> In the AI era... Back in my day, you could also just Google the problems and find the solutions. What mitigated cheating at UVA was the honor code and each professor's faith and trust in our integrity. That culture was enough to not cheat. Imo, the fix should be to work on culture. Cheating should always be a tempting choice, so that the student may challenge their integrity, which is a muscle that can atrophy.

The culture comes from the role of the institution and the degree. The fact is that the primary role of the degree is as a gatekeeper to high paying job opportunities, regardless of what anyone idealistically thinks it should be.

This creates some problems. Let's say that you go to university and major in X to get a job in Y. So you assume that the companies are requiring you to get the degree to prove that you are competent in X which is necessary to do job Y. But when you get to university you realize that most of your classes required to get a degree in X actually have nothing to do with X. Furthermore you also notice that students who just cram for the test and have no functional knowledge of X are still getting As and graduating.

Then you get a summer internship in a job doing Y. You notice that learning to do job Y really has nothing to do with what you learned about X in school. You notice that your mangers an the company who are really good at job Y (and all majored in X) have basically forgotten everything they know about X and know much less about it than you, but are excellent at job Y. You finish your internship and now know that you are perfectly capable of doing job Y. But, of course you can't get job Y yet because you don't have your degree in X. You have to go back to school and learn more about X before anyone will hire you even though you already know more about X than the people who do job Y and who you can see really don't need knowledge in X to do the job.

So you are being forced to get a degree in X to get job Y, but job Y doesn't really require knowledge of X. And on top of that, a degree in X doesn't even really mean you have any functional knowledge of X! Everybody just learns Y on the job anyway!

So now you have an exam in X, so you decide fuck it, why would I spend time on this? This whole system is retarded, I'm just going to use ChatGPT.

This was basically my experience in college. I never cheated, both because it was harder before LLMs and because I didn't really need to study much to get As, but I find it hard to fault people who do. I really struggle to see how integrity plays into this system. The system itself has no integrity, so having integrity inside it almost seems like being a sucker. If you want to change the culture to promote integrity, the education and the degree have to mean something besides an arbitrary bureaucratic gatekeeping device.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#412
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are students whose performance on such assessments is not a good signal of their intellectual ability Is there a form of assessment that is a good signal of the intellectual ability of all students?

Fruit of labor? Good students of science produce novel science..as in testable ideas without precedent.. a thing llms struggle with, as they at best can interpolate and mash up previous ideas

Many good students don't produce such artifacts. That's one of the big problems in academia -- a smart person with good ideas can inadvertently pursue a less promising path and not produce ground-breaking research, so how do you tease that apart from somebody scamming the system? The current approach is to measure unrelated bullshit like citation metrics. I'd hate to see those sorts of perverse incentives pushed down into the student body as well.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#413
post #398
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an old enough tradition that there are jokes that rely on you knowing the tradition. My favorite: professor known for being VERY strict tells class repeatedly in weeks leading up to exam, "You will have exactly two hours to finish your exam, and no more. I will not accept exam booklets turned in even one minute past the two hour mark: they will score a zero. Be warned." Exam day comes, and all but one student ar…

Not to ruin the joke, but he knows and can remember the student's face so I don't think that student can get away with it.

I like to think he was amused by the student's audacity and decided that yes, he was being unfair in this particular case. I know not everyone would be so fair-minded, but I like to think that this guy would be.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That [motivation] has been formed by corporations increasingly placing pressure on universities to be their personal training grounds, without any actual investment. Corporations don't want to train anymore. They want universities and other companies to do their training for them. I don't think so. The problem rather is that corporations very often want some very different knowledge of employees than what universit…

If only they could communicate with each other and explain their reasoning. Corporation A "Hi University, here is what we hire highly paid people to do, and what we need to improve as a company." University B, "Hi Corp A, here is our educational mandate to create well-rounded, highly educated people, we can probably fit your needs into the curriculum in the last couple of semesters, let's work together to make sure y…

But in practice the typical situation is that it is perfectly easy to graduate from University B without being well rounded and highly educated, and also you can skate by without actually learning any of the job relevant stuff in the last 2 semesters either.

I'm surprised Corporation A doesn't say "FU, we're just going to hire HS grads with high SAT scores and train them ourselves," but for whatever reason they typically don't.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#415

His research is in Game Theory. He should have realized that, in a situation where all competitors are (possibly) using LLMs, the game theoretic optimal choice is to use LLMs.

Game Theory seems sort of useless in the real world because people are not rational players, and the real challenge is in getting an accurate model of their behavior. The honor system would work probably fine in a tiny close-knit liberal arts college, while it would obviously wouldn't in a place where the degree itself is the target.

when you know what is game theoretic, deviation from it carries information you can potentially exploit.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#416
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing work with handwriting helps in learning the material. I don't know why that works, but my experience (and others') clearly shows it does.

It's been clearly shown to be beneficial for some people. I too happen to be one of them. For others, hearing stuff (and saying stuff) out loud is more useful. I had a friend who'd make nonsense songs of stuff to learn: just doggerel, but by singing it to himself when revising, he had a massive uptick in retention. He was so happy when he worked that out. I imagine there might be other modes that work for other peopl…

If I say "people have two legs", someone is bound to reply "My friend Bob has only one leg."

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite a bit older than you, old enough that I remember learning to touch type in elementary school on Apple IIe and IIgs desktop computers. It's not reasonable these days to expect people to hand write a 4, 6, 8 page length essay on paper and pen with a finite time limit in a classroom. Being able to edit and revise things in a word processor type interface is an essential part of writing an academic paper. Addit…

> I would struggle to do it by hand. If you did it before then, barring physical limitations which have occurred since then, you would struggle for a short while and then you would be fine. I also did coursework purely on paper, got out of practice, and then once my kids were in school got back into the habit of handwriting. I can even write cursive again. Cursive makes it much easier on the hand and wrist. There's a…

I have never been able to handwrite well and my family suspects I have dysgraphia. I can write, but slowly and unreadably. But I can type over 160 wpm. Typing for me is strictly superior, probably by an order of magnitude.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#418
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m 30 and “we can’t do tests in paper” seems _insane_. Just how metastatic has ed tech been in what, 9 years since my undergrad?

I’m 40 and forcing students to do handwritten essays during tests has always been stupid. Typing is much faster, why bottleneck ideas by forcing handwriting?

Because students aren’t AI and aren’t measured by tokens/s

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#419
post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have absolutely no concern over a 20 yr old's ability to weather the rigors of manipulating a 7 gram pencil. It's not like we're talking about getting them to spend a week on a roofing crew or swap their gaming mouse for a set of post hole diggers here. If someone needs an accommodation then that should absolutely be made available.

I'm all for handwritten tests, but it's more complicated than that. If you're actually writing for 2hr+ and haven't studied appropriate technique or bought some sort of crutch like a pencil holder then the repetitive motion will absolutely cause cramps for a fraction of the class regardless of being 20ish and healthy, and they might not find that out until they're forced to write for 2hr. The muscles manipulating a p…

What are you even talking about? It’s normal for young students to be using a pencil to write for multiple hours in a day in school.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice way to paywall a comment on HN.

Is it paywalled? I honestly didn't realize that. Sorry. I'll edit the comment and change to an open URL and paste the two main ideas here: FORCED SKILL-BUILDING GOALS Where my original purpose of giving homework assignments was to help students build their skills through active engagement, I can no longer trust that all my students will have done it by hand. But I still want my students to feel the need to improve th…

For homework: if you make homework results not count towards the final grade, then there's no reason to use an LLM - the point then just becomes to have practice problems and feedback on how well you are doing.

This is what my university (EPFL) was doing ~40 years ago. And yes, some students didn't bother with the homework, and mostly paid the price at the final exam...

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