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Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

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Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#351

While I am in no way a supporter of AI cheating, or whatever we want to call it, I can tell you from experience that there is nothing more tedious or soul destroying than invigilating a written multi-hour exam. It put me off teaching in higher education. IMHO to solve many problems we should go with Ivan Illich's ideas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deschooling_Society and make education about education, not testing…

How is invigilation "soul destroying"? You just walk or stand around as students write exams. Grading exams is tedious, but invigilating them is a neutral experience.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#352
One of the hardest and best exams I had to do in university was my behavioural finance midterm exam: the format was that I had to sit down with the professor and have a five minute discussion on a topic of my choosing. It was surprisingly tough, and the process of verbalising what you know about a topic doesn't give you much room to hide.

Accurate and high-quality exams are a solved problem. The issue is that universities aren't necessarily judged on teaching quality and opt for examination methods that scale well.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> make education about education, not testing and certification We tried this. The whole grades-are-racist nonsense movement (in part a reaction to NCLB). It doesn’t work. Learning requires confronting difficulty and evaluation, even if you’re learning alone. If you want to see what attempting to learn without tests looks like, see people who think they’ve taught themselves a topic by chatting with AI. Nine times out…

I have learned a lot about computer programming from reading books and from more experienced programmers. This is what Illich was talking about - give people an allowance and let them spend it as they will, for example on books and mentors, or indeed on classic universities. > The whole grades-are-racist nonsense. Wow, swerve off topic. I never mentioned anything like that and I do not want to.

> have learned a lot about computer programming from reading books and from more experienced programmers

I like learning from textbooks and others. I would say self testing myself is the difference between reading nonfiction and trying to learn something.

> never mentioned anything like that and I do not want to

It’s the rhetoric that was used to push back against examination in California and New York. Explicitly. The rhetoric was new, but it was essentially Illich’s ideas.

The result was kids in wealthy districts with tutors or with educated parents who valued learning for its own purpose (and had the time and skill to convey that to their kids) did well while those in poorer districts got left behind because absent measurement you have no accountability.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#354
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And physics

Yeah, many of my physics exams were take-home open-book. One that I particularly remember: "Here's your exam. There's one problem. It's due when you come back from spring break."

I graduated forever ago, but I still have bad dreams about this type of homework. That and the "oh no, I somehow forgot to go to this class all semester and now I have to take the final exam!"

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#355

In the AI era, tests are going to have to be in person and hand written. I have written an article on how I have adjusted my classes to the situation: https://htmx.org/essays/universities-and-ai/ Ironically, I think the AI era may make university degrees a better signal of the intellectual abilities of students due to the presence of pre-computer infrastructure like large lecture halls, industrial-scale copiers, etc.

oddly enough, since AI can be used to read and interpret written text, it could itself usher in a return to physical pen and paper.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's news to me that they weren't already. My exams were all in person and on paper in the early 2020s, and even my physics homework was a "do it on engineering paper and drop it in a mail slot" affair. The professors would forbid computers and phones during lectures and would stop to shame anyone who thought they were being sneaky. Computer Science classes were all on paper for exams, and low level ones did the old…

> It's news to me that they weren't already. It’s an old (and outdated IMO) tradition at some Ivy Leagues, as the article notes. It may have worked in the era when students had a little more fear of repercussions and a little more sense that cheating on a test would only cause them problems when courses got harder later. Now it seems there is little interest in dealing with cheating, as evidenced by how hard it was f…

It's an old enough tradition that there are jokes that rely on you knowing the tradition.

My favorite: professor known for being VERY strict tells class repeatedly in weeks leading up to exam, "You will have exactly two hours to finish your exam, and no more. I will not accept exam booklets turned in even one minute past the two hour mark: they will score a zero. Be warned."

Exam day comes, and all but one student are in their seats with the blue exam booklet in front of them when the professor says "Begin." He arches an eyebrow at the empty desk, but says nothing.

Fifteen minutes later, the tardy student rushes in. "Family emergency," he says, "sorry." The professor tells him "You have one hour forty-five minutes." Student says nothing, but opens his book and starts writing furiously.

The two hour mark comes up, and everyone except the tardy student turns in their booklets and leaves the room. The professor reminds him "Time's up," but he just keeps writing in the booklet.

At the 2:12 mark, one hour fifty-seven minutes after he ran into the exam room, the student closes his blue book and walks up to the desk where the other books are stacked up in a messy pile. The professor is reclining in his chair with his feet up on the desk. "Nope," he says, "you're late. I won't accept your exam booklet, and you're going to get a zero on the final exam."

"That's not fair," said the student, "I had to drive my mother to the hospital. I shouldn't be punished for that. I took no more time than anyone else."

"Nope, you knew the rules," says the professor.

"Don't you know who I am?" says the student, raising his voice.

"Nope, don't know, don't care," says the professor.

"Good!" says the student. He slides his exam book into the middle of the messy stack, straightens it up neatly, and before the professor has gotten his feet off the desk, walks briskly out into the hallway.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in your day education was not sold as a financial transaction to a prosperous life. The honor system is idyllic and requires idyllic circumstances: people who pursue education for no reason other than curiosity or self improvement. If you want the honor system back then you need to offer more stable safety nets. It's not "kids these days", it's the natural result of the systems adults have made.

> Back in your day education was not sold as a financial transaction to a prosperous life. Assuming the person you're talking to is still alive, this isn't true. > The honor system is idyllic and requires idyllic circumstances: people who pursue education for no reason other than curiosity or self improvement. This isn't true either; if your student body consists of only those people, you don't need any system at all…

I'm still alive, and college wasn't really sold primarily as a financial investment when I attended in the 1970s.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#358
post #277

In the AI era, tests are going to have to be in person and hand written. I have written an article on how I have adjusted my classes to the situation: https://htmx.org/essays/universities-and-ai/ Ironically, I think the AI era may make university degrees a better signal of the intellectual abilities of students due to the presence of pre-computer infrastructure like large lecture halls, industrial-scale copiers, etc.

Even then, AI smart glasses are now making an appearance in classrooms [1]. The situation is getting really quite ridiculous. [1] https://www.evenrealities.com/en-GB/blogs/buyers-guide/ai-mo...

That should result in an immediate expulsion

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#359

As a university professor, I honestly don't understand the point of grading. Who will look at and care about grades? Likely company HR. But then why should we (professors) do the screening for companies for free? Also, grades have long been inflated to a point we might as well just give everyone an A and let companies figure out how to select people.

Wow. Do you care at all about the reputation of your university?

I worked briefly in post-secondary CS education a long time ago, before academia turned into the ideological warzone it is today, and if I said such a thing, I would've probably lost my job.

Also, grades have long been inflated

Then stop inflating them. This is also what standardised testing is good for --- but no surprise, so many are against it because it would just show how terrible they actually are.

"The fish rots from the head."

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#360
post #217

As a university professor, I honestly don't understand the point of grading. Who will look at and care about grades? Likely company HR. But then why should we (professors) do the screening for companies for free? Also, grades have long been inflated to a point we might as well just give everyone an A and let companies figure out how to select people.

It saddens me to see how creativity seems to "peak" at "let's go back to how we did it in 20th century" instead of asking the better questions like you did.

it saddens me to see people testing parachutes on others instead of giving them functional existing parachute designs
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