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Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

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Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#181

Post by WalterBright »

vector_spaces wrote: post #163
customguy wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Forcing hand written should really not be necessary. I do think it's necessary. And I felt unsure at first of how extremely strong I feel about this -- I think everybody should be able to write cursive, and even doctors should be able to write legibly, which ALL of them could learn in one single day, an afternoon, if they had to -- but then I did a simple search for "the benefits of writing by hand studies" and now…

I appreciate the sentiment, as someone who vastly prefers handwriting, but the downfall of this might be the situation we have historically had in the US with math, where the experience of being clumsily force fed this additional material can be so painful that it induces PTSD-like symptoms and a lifelong aversion to the material. A similar phenomenon even occurs with cursive and PE class. That obviously isn't to say…

How can you tell if they learned anything if you don't test them?

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#182

Post by SecretDreams »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #57

In the AI era, tests are going to have to be in person and hand written. I have written an article on how I have adjusted my classes to the situation: https://htmx.org/essays/universities-and-ai/ Ironically, I think the AI era may make university degrees a better signal of the intellectual abilities of students due to the presence of pre-computer infrastructure like large lecture halls, industrial-scale copiers, etc.

All my stem exams were hand written, it's how it should be. The best part is coming out with everyone else already disheveled and then grabbing a drink (or many) after the last one is over. That's some solidarity drinking right there.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#183

Post by cindyllm »

Gigachad wrote: post #176
BinRoo wrote: post #167

> In the AI era... Back in my day, you could also just Google the problems and find the solutions. What mitigated cheating at UVA was the honor code and each professor's faith and trust in our integrity. That culture was enough to not cheat. Imo, the fix should be to work on culture. Cheating should always be a tempting choice, so that the student may challenge their integrity, which is a muscle that can atrophy.

The world is getting more competitive. Integrity goes out the window when cheating in a test can mean meaningful better life outcomes and when you believe everyone else will be too.

[dead]

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#184

Post by WalterBright »

encomiast wrote: post #140
customguy wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Forcing hand written should really not be necessary. I do think it's necessary. And I felt unsure at first of how extremely strong I feel about this -- I think everybody should be able to write cursive, and even doctors should be able to write legibly, which ALL of them could learn in one single day, an afternoon, if they had to -- but then I did a simple search for "the benefits of writing by hand studies" and now…

> I think everybody should be able to write cursive As someone who has hated both reading and writing cursive since middle school, I'm curious what is significant about cursive specifically?

Doing work with handwriting helps in learning the material. I don't know why that works, but my experience (and others') clearly shows it does.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#185

Post by wrs »

ewild wrote: post #146
dgellow wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are those exams a contest? Like, they will only take the best N percentiles? Because if not, you’re competing only against yourself and should ignore others’ grades

It's an incredibly privileged Pov to say it isn't a contest. These kids entire futures are impacted by these scores.

Well, not once the scores become meaningless because everyone assumes they cheated.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#186

Post by WalterBright »

walrus01 wrote: post #153
dekdrop wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how do you make sure they are not using their mobile phone with llms while the exam? I have seen that happening.

The same method that any test given in the last 150 years has done to prevent people from using cheat sheets or similar, by having roaming proctors in the room? Or policies like certain models of HP or TI graphing calculator only allowed on the table, for the sort of test that requires one...

Somehow I got through high school and 4 years of every class being a math class in college without a graphing calculator.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#187

Post by jasondigitized »

dekdrop wrote: post #147
walrus01 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the AI era, tests are going to have to be in person and hand written. Forcing hand written should really not be necessary. It would be very cheap in terms of old computing hardware to set up a test room with old desktop PCs that have wired only NICs (with a network connection that goes to a switch in the same room with no uplink, connected to a decent size laser printer only), running something like lubuntu and…

how do you make sure they are not using their mobile phone with llms while the exam? I have seen that happening.

Seems like a problem an entrepreneur / technologist can easily solve.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#188

Post by Lerc »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #57

In the AI era, tests are going to have to be in person and hand written. I have written an article on how I have adjusted my classes to the situation: https://htmx.org/essays/universities-and-ai/ Ironically, I think the AI era may make university degrees a better signal of the intellectual abilities of students due to the presence of pre-computer infrastructure like large lecture halls, industrial-scale copiers, etc.

Why hand written?

Wouldn't a one-on-one interview be a better way to establish a broad evaluation of competency.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#189

Post by odyssey7 »

Gigachad wrote: post #176
BinRoo wrote: post #167

> In the AI era... Back in my day, you could also just Google the problems and find the solutions. What mitigated cheating at UVA was the honor code and each professor's faith and trust in our integrity. That culture was enough to not cheat. Imo, the fix should be to work on culture. Cheating should always be a tempting choice, so that the student may challenge their integrity, which is a muscle that can atrophy.

The world is getting more competitive. Integrity goes out the window when cheating in a test can mean meaningful better life outcomes and when you believe everyone else will be too.

The thing about the community of trust—of which all stewards—is that camaraderie, respect, identifying with the community, and integrity will keep the majority of students from cheating. And if that isn’t enough, the “single sanction” was historically a sufficient danger to raise the stakes immensely.

However, some students will cheat, and for that reason, I am very much against curves. If you learn the material and demonstrate that you have, you should get the A. But it’s more work for professors to calibrate their curriculums, and there seems to be no real accountability for the inverse of learning objectives—teaching objectives—so curves are likely here to stay.

Re: Professor denounces mass AI fraud on an exam at Brown

#190

Post by Yossarrian22 »

JimsonYang wrote: post #29

As of now chatgpt subsidies its consumer subscription-I wonder if cheating on exams will be still promiment once students are forced to pay $30 a month Since students are notorious for being cheap

In comparison to textbooks or tuition even a $1000 a month could be palatable
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