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Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

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Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#81

Post by hcs »

SR2Z wrote: post #46
baconmania wrote: post #8

The implication that tokenmaxxing was an intentional and thoughtfully considered approach rather than blind hype-following by an overpaid manager class who are too far removed from value to understand the downsides of LLMs is hysterical beyond belief.

I really don't understand this take. If you're a carpentry shop that just bought power tools for the first time and you're worried that your employees are sticking with hand tools because that's what they know, then you look for sawdust. The goal isn't to have people work at converting wood into sawdust, the point is that if you wanna see if the tools are working you wanna see proof they're actually being used. I'm s…

> If you're a carpentry shop that just bought power tools for the first time and you're worried that your employees are sticking with hand tools because that's what they know, then you look for sawdust.

Or count the fingers, I guess. It's all fun and games until someone looses AI.

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#82

Post by nezi »

jtrn wrote: post #55

Better title more in line with the content of the article would have been: The reports of tokenmaxxing’s death are greatly exaggerated. Pet peeve of mine is nonsensical usage of the x is dead, long live x.

The long live x is a lazy meme that draws attention that posters can use to skip thinking of an actual appropriate title.

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#83

Post by geophile »

SR2Z wrote: post #46
baconmania wrote: post #8

The implication that tokenmaxxing was an intentional and thoughtfully considered approach rather than blind hype-following by an overpaid manager class who are too far removed from value to understand the downsides of LLMs is hysterical beyond belief.

I really don't understand this take. If you're a carpentry shop that just bought power tools for the first time and you're worried that your employees are sticking with hand tools because that's what they know, then you look for sawdust. The goal isn't to have people work at converting wood into sawdust, the point is that if you wanna see if the tools are working you wanna see proof they're actually being used. I'm s…

Bad managers, in general, grab a metric and then unthinkingly optimize it. I’ve never worked for FAANG, but I’d be surprised if they didn’t have bad managers too.

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#84

Post by pier25 »

aurareturn wrote: post #2

Tokenmaxxing was just a way to force employees to start leveraging AI in a meaningful way. For companies that have measured performance based on token spend, they can now dial it back. Employees have learned to leverage AI for things they wouldn’t have prior. Now they know what’s possible and what’s not. No one is stupid enough to always measure performance based on token spend and have unlimited budget. It was alway…

It seems really absurd that anyone would encourage or even force employees to burn more money to see if maybe something works.

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#85

Post by HDThoreaun »

cyphar wrote: post #50
SR2Z wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand this take. If you're a carpentry shop that just bought power tools for the first time and you're worried that your employees are sticking with hand tools because that's what they know, then you look for sawdust. The goal isn't to have people work at converting wood into sawdust, the point is that if you wanna see if the tools are working you wanna see proof they're actually being used. I'm s…

Why would a carpentry shop buy hundreds of thousands of dollars of power tools without consulting with their employees to see what they actually need to get their job done more effectively? The logic of buying the tools then forcing the employees to use them "or else" is completely backwards in any sane world. (Of course, we've all had bosses that went to some marketing seminar and come back having been tricked^Wsold…

The logic of trusting employees who are worried that power tools will replace them to utilize power tools effectively is completely backwards in any sane world. People don’t like change, sometimes it needs to be forced on them.

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#86

Post by dijksterhuis »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #85
cyphar wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would a carpentry shop buy hundreds of thousands of dollars of power tools without consulting with their employees to see what they actually need to get their job done more effectively? The logic of buying the tools then forcing the employees to use them "or else" is completely backwards in any sane world. (Of course, we've all had bosses that went to some marketing seminar and come back having been tricked^Wsold…

The logic of trusting employees who are worried that power tools will replace them to utilize power tools effectively is completely backwards in any sane world. People don’t like change, sometimes it needs to be forced on them.

> who are worried that power tools will replace them

maybe, just maybe, it would have been a better idea to engage with employees first rather than posting on linkedin about how everyone is going to lose their jobs.

cos it's the kinds of people trying to force this stuff on employees that are the ones who have been shouting about that from the rooftops.

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#87

Post by sigbottle »

cyphar wrote: post #56
linsomniac wrote: post #4

>I’ve basically never heard a business leader say that they were going to set a bunch of money on fire because it made them feel good. Really? ~4 years ago our CEO hired a consultant to fly out several times to do team building exercises. We can't afford to do our 3-year server refresh cycle, but the consultant was no problem to pay. We just recently had branding consultants come in and also spent thousands of dollar…

I'm also taken aback with how naive folks are about companies, they really seem to have bought the whole "capitalism is efficient" maxim hook, line, and sinker. I really struggle to imagine how anyone in a corporate environment has managed to never run into obvious examples of waste like you describe (overpaid consultants and mandatory budgets are classic examples). Office Space came out 27 years ago and has a plotli…

Narratives are the most ungodly effective thing known to mankind, is the issue.

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#88

Post by Arainach »

SR2Z wrote: post #46
baconmania wrote: post #8

The implication that tokenmaxxing was an intentional and thoughtfully considered approach rather than blind hype-following by an overpaid manager class who are too far removed from value to understand the downsides of LLMs is hysterical beyond belief.

I really don't understand this take. If you're a carpentry shop that just bought power tools for the first time and you're worried that your employees are sticking with hand tools because that's what they know, then you look for sawdust. The goal isn't to have people work at converting wood into sawdust, the point is that if you wanna see if the tools are working you wanna see proof they're actually being used. I'm s…

> the people who run FAANG don't understand the dangers of bad metrics is... interesting

They don't. They want some metric to support what they want to do and don't care about good metrics at all.

I've spent the vast majority of my career in FAANGs and it's been the pattern everywhere.

Right now my org has a senior director who is constantly battering managers to tell their reports to fill out the weekly surveys.

Why are the employees not filling out the surveys? Because instead of the old once a year large survey with questions about various levels (including local teams where management cared about the numbers and I could see the actions they took) we now get a survey every week with questions that are meaningless and I have no answer for.

"How does team X deliver on its priorities"?

Team X has O(10K) peoples and a barely countable infinity of projects. Most of which I don't know about and most of which I'm not supposed to know about since things are compartmentalized. So I don't know what team X's priorities are, I don't know how they deliver on them, and I never will know. Asking me and my colleagues is a waste of time and money.

...but none of that matters because the directors want "data" and they want a dashboard showing that we're all giving them "data".

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#89

Post by theahura »

jtrn wrote: post #55

Better title more in line with the content of the article would have been: The reports of tokenmaxxing’s death are greatly exaggerated. Pet peeve of mine is nonsensical usage of the x is dead, long live x.

that is a better title! Added it as a subheader

Re: Tokenmaxxing is dead, long live tokenmaxxing

#90

Post by agentultra »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #85
cyphar wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would a carpentry shop buy hundreds of thousands of dollars of power tools without consulting with their employees to see what they actually need to get their job done more effectively? The logic of buying the tools then forcing the employees to use them "or else" is completely backwards in any sane world. (Of course, we've all had bosses that went to some marketing seminar and come back having been tricked^Wsold…

The logic of trusting employees who are worried that power tools will replace them to utilize power tools effectively is completely backwards in any sane world. People don’t like change, sometimes it needs to be forced on them.

Doubt. People brought in all kinds of web applications in the early Web 2.0 era because corporate IT was being too stingy (for a lot of reasons). People will find efficiencies on their job on their own. No need to denigrate them.
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