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Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

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Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#221

Post by infecto »

tptacek wrote: post #220
infecto wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the cops can access the private land cameras. I would wager most small to conglomerate level business opt-in. Last I checked the Lowes and Walmarts of the US share this data as its locks down shoplifters quicker.

Police cannot access privately-owned Flock cameras unless the owners authorize them to do so, or a court orders it (in the same sense that a court can order access to any information on any device).

Yes that is what I said. Most private owners opt in to this data sharing arrangement. Keep in mind some of the largest deployments are with big box stores and retail property owners.

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#222

Post by tptacek »

guelo wrote: post #219
tptacek wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not getting banned fast, and regulation isn't a lost cause. Flock, in particular, is getting contracts cancelled primarily in ultra-liberal municipalities, and that's in large part because of their public relationship with the current federal administration. But ALPRs are going up everywhere; they're a commodity technology. We canceled our Flock contract (I wasn't psyched about that) and we're ringed by munis…

I got caught by an ALPR 20 years ago. I've been confused about 1) what is Flock's innovation 2) why are people up in arm.

The thing that Flock does that's alarming is that it provides operators with a search engine for arbitrary vehicle descriptions which include but are not limited to license plates, with history stretching back; misuse scenarios are obvious, the search histories allow you to track the movements of specific people with fine granularity.

The thing that Flock does that is actually immediately problematic is that it operationalizes BOLO/hotlist databases that weren't intended to be used in real-time. Our deployment of Flock curbed more innocent vehicles than actual stolen cars, because Illinois LEADS isn't reliably updated, and so pings on vehicles that were reported stolen (whether or not they actually turned out to have been stolen as opposed to borrowed by a family member or something) weeks ago and recovered.

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#223

Post by MichaelZuo »

tptacek wrote: post #222
guelo wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got caught by an ALPR 20 years ago. I've been confused about 1) what is Flock's innovation 2) why are people up in arm.

The thing that Flock does that's alarming is that it provides operators with a search engine for arbitrary vehicle descriptions which include but are not limited to license plates, with history stretching back; misuse scenarios are obvious, the search histories allow you to track the movements of specific people with fine granularity. The thing that Flock does that is actually immediately problematic is that it opera…

That sounds like a much more foundational and serious issue than any number of ALPR systems?

If Illionis LEADS lacks credibility?

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#224

Post by kannanvijayan »

assimpleaspossi wrote: post #172
sublinear wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have stats, but most police have made it pretty clear that they're used for investigations that would otherwise have very little to go on. I don't think anyone other than the manufacturers have made claims of cameras reducing crime. You can put all the AI bells and whistles on them, but they're still just cameras. They're a fallback option, not a dragnet. The police are generally reactive to reports of crime,…

You are absolutely correct but you won't get anywhere here. I have relatives who are cops and lawyers and city councilmen. No cop is sitting in a back room somewhere tracking all the cars on every street trying to do, uh, whatever it is people here are claiming they are going to do to them.

An obsessive stalker police officer that's angry at their ex girlfriend moving on and finding a new partner will probably not be interested in EVERY car, just the one she drives and the one her new boyfriend drives.

I won't speculate as to what your law enforcement family members may or may not be capable of when it comes to this technology, but I will speculate on what they will likely do if they found out about an obsessive stalker police officer that's watching their ex-girlfriend and her new partner using this tech: they will likely assist in hiding it so as to ensure that the optics of the justice system are not marred.

The reason I suspect they will behave in this way is not because they're bad people - but because they're likely normal people who are subject to normal influences and incentives. There will be no personal benefit, and significant personal risk associated with whistleblowing on this hypothetical officer, and so they will find rationalizations for why they shouldn't. Why it's fine to let this "one bad apple" go for the greater good of the optics of the justice system.

So it goes.

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#225

Post by tptacek »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #223
tptacek wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that Flock does that's alarming is that it provides operators with a search engine for arbitrary vehicle descriptions which include but are not limited to license plates, with history stretching back; misuse scenarios are obvious, the search histories allow you to track the movements of specific people with fine granularity. The thing that Flock does that is actually immediately problematic is that it opera…

That sounds like a much more foundational and serious issue than any number of ALPR systems? If Illionis LEADS lacks credibility?

It has plenty of credibility at the task for which it was designed. It wasn't designed as a backend event system for real-time sensors.

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#227

Post by LNSY »

microgpt wrote: post #126
christoph wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Fascism should rightly be called corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power.” - Benito Mussolini

Nah. Fascism only tolerates one power, that being itself. It can emerge from either the state or corporate side, and necessarily subsumes or destroys the other, just as it subsumes or destroys unions, families, friend networks, communications, and anything else that can establish power. That doesn't mean the merger of two of them is the defining feature.

[dead]

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#228

Post by chaps »

tptacek wrote: post #202
KennyBlanken wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Characterizing vehicles based on stickers (which easily can indicate political leanings) is absolutely problematic. It's just not considered problematic by conservatives, given police in the US are overwhelmingly conservative.

Look, I agree that's problematic conceptually, but it's absolutely not what's happening. ALPRs don't select cars on spec, like, "this car looks out of place here". Nobody has time for that. They're matching specific descriptions of cars to incidents, like, "this vehicle has been present at the site of 5 previous package thefts". Here's another way to look at this. Municipalities are the primary operators of ALPR came…

  They're matching specific descriptions of cars to incidents, like, "this vehicle has been present at the site of 5 previous package thefts".
You're hand-waving a hell of a lot of things away and you expect that everyone knows what you're talking about. Please stop doing that.

- Who is "They"?

- Why do you say "nobody has time for that"? What is "that"?

- Why are you dismissing genuine concerns through unhelpful language like, "coming to it with movie plot concerns".

- Why wouldn't "that" be a big deal? What is "that"?!

- What are the deeply problematic things?

- "They're matching specific descriptions of cars to incidents" -- no they're not. Just looking at Bloomingdale's audit logs, there are 13k examples of searches done for the simple reason, "suspicious".

- Why does municipalities being the primary operators matter?

Asking from a place of genuine confusion by how you think about these things.

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#229

Post by MichaelZuo »

tptacek wrote: post #225
MichaelZuo wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a much more foundational and serious issue than any number of ALPR systems? If Illionis LEADS lacks credibility?

It has plenty of credibility at the task for which it was designed. It wasn't designed as a backend event system for real-time sensors.

Huh?

You just said it “isn't reliably updated, and so pings on vehicles that were reported stolen…” are weeks out of date?

Even if all ALPRs vanished from the Earth tomorrow, that still indicates a lack of credibility in the pings?

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#230

Post by boelboel »

deepsquirrelnet wrote: post #97

Can anybody find trustworthy stats that these actually reduce crime? All I see are occasional anecdotes about how they were used to find one person one time. Skeptical me seriously doubts this is an effective solution for crime. But maybe that's because this country has a history of being willing to do a million expensive and privacy violating things, and only if it's a punitive measure.

I'm not sure about reducing crime but most American police departments have difficulty finding staff. Generally boring job in most places and not really liked in other places (status loss). Speeding things up is one of the ways to deal with it.
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