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EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

patrick-breyer.de

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Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#191

Post by munksbeer »

constantius wrote: post #106
jltsiren wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time, when "the EU" is doing something bad, it's actually the national governments wearing a different hat. The Parliament is pretty reasonable on the average, while the national policicians in the Council take advantage of the ignorance of the public. They can pursue their favorite policies without consequences, as the EU gets all the blame.

The issue is that the outcome is the same: whether the Parliament is made up of angels or not, the dealings of the Commission and Council affect the Member States anyway.

The Council is the member states.

The Commission are their appointed civil service and work on whatever agenda is set by the Council (the member states).

Almost everything people complain about coming out of "the EU" originates in the national elected governments.

About the only ones actually protecting the people of the MEPs (the elected EU MPs). They keep shutting this sort of stuff down, and then some member state (mostly Denmark it seems) finds a way to resurrect it again, and again, and again. They only need to succeed once.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#192

Post by zkmon »

A blanket control affecting privacy would be bad. However we need controls that can prevent criminals from hiding behind anonymity and being able to organize massive activities just with a few online posts. These days it is trivial to organize and radicalize the youth into wrong paths overnight using social channels. You just need to say something that aligns with their problems, and most people get consumed by the divisive speech easily.

The effect is already seen how the ability of rioters far exceeds that of the authorities during recent incidents in UK and other places. Something need to be done for this.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#193

Post by kristjank »

I have two observations to make here.

1. It seems that most of the evil here is concentrated among the liberal right and liberal left. Both far right AfD types and the left are against this.

2. A lot of positions, when clarified, just want to keep the (bad) status quo of CC1.0, while opposing 2.0, which was the much more totalitarian one. This also includes the crucial shadow rapporteurs.

This is still not good, but unless I've understood something very wrongly here, this isn't the same as just pushing the worst version of chat control 2.0 through.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#194

Post by Xelbair »

jltsiren wrote: post #48
elric wrote: post #8

This is going to further increase anti-EU sentiment. This is unacceptable behaviour, but no politician is ever going to experience any negative consequences over this because they're so very far removed from the democratic process.

Most of the time, when "the EU" is doing something bad, it's actually the national governments wearing a different hat. The Parliament is pretty reasonable on the average, while the national policicians in the Council take advantage of the ignorance of the public. They can pursue their favorite policies without consequences, as the EU gets all the blame.

which speaks volumes about either EU overstepping it's bounds as an entity, or is severely lacking checks and balances.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#195

Post by Xelbair »

Chu4eeno wrote: post #88
jltsiren wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time, when "the EU" is doing something bad, it's actually the national governments wearing a different hat. The Parliament is pretty reasonable on the average, while the national policicians in the Council take advantage of the ignorance of the public. They can pursue their favorite policies without consequences, as the EU gets all the blame.

I don't think you can nicely divide it like that. It seems to be mostly bad individuals, or just individuals with some bad ideas they refuse to give up.

the problem is that EU has no way for citizens/voters to actually purge those bad individuals.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#196

Post by munksbeer »

logicchains wrote: post #109
GTP wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the EU is not perfect and surely needs improvement in many areas, it is still better than not having it. This is why you see a lot of pro-EU content: many people here (myself included) are of the opinion that the EU needs to be improved, not dismantled.

>While the EU is not perfect and surely needs improvement in many areas, it is still better than not having it. Would you still believe this if Chat Control got though? What good did the EU bring that's good enough to make up for the badness of everyone in Europe having all their private digital communications constantly scanned?

> Would you still believe this if Chat Control got though?

Chat Control is being pushed by member states. The people who keep saving you are the MEPs (elected EU MPs).

You would most likely already have chat control if you were not in the EU. All governments around the world are pushing for this.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#197

Post by bluecalm »

basisword wrote: post #9
bluecalm wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like we can do anything. We don't have democracy - we can't vote on issues and we (in most countries) can't even vote on people. We just vote on 2-3 non-fringe parties and they choose people and policies. You may formally put an X next to some name but it's just a chosen party official. They need to walk party line and be in good standings with the leadership to even get on the list. There is just nothing yo…

>> We don't have democracy - we can't vote on issues This is how democracy works pretty much everywhere. You vote for parties or people based on their policies.

There are too many levels of indirection. At least in some countries you can vote on a person representing your town/area. This is one level of indirection less and allows people who aren't just chosen party members to win and then they have incentives to help the region.

In "standard" party democracy there is just nothing that can be done. Calling it democracy as in rule of the people is a disgrace.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#198

Post by thegrimmest »

navane wrote: post #184
thegrimmest wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a hot take, but I don't know that "privacy" and "anonymity" are the same thing, or that the latter is worth preserving. I would very much like to live in a world where everyone stood by everything they said online with their real identity, just as they already do in the real world. This was already the case for all of human history until the information age. If you wanted to say something, you had to physically…

Do you ever wonder why we vote anonymously?

Voting and broadcasting (and here we are broadcasting) are different things.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#199

Post by loup-vaillant »

Havoc wrote: post #58

The global push to kill privacy makes me sad. Feels like I grew up in a golden age and subsequent generations won't care because they never knew a different world

> The global push to kill privacy makes me sad.

Only sad? Like, we already lost and we might as well give up?

I’m not sad. I’m scared, and I’m angry. And I’m beginning to think maybe everyone should be too. I mean, in normal circumstances, you don’t want an angry and scared population, that’s generally a recipe for disaster. At this point though, given the various decisions at the top that so clearly disfavour the bottom 99%, angry and scared is probably exactly what we need. Well, angry, mostly. Furious. Mad.

The hard part is determining who the enemy actually is. Hint: the more wealth and power, the more likely this is one of them. Strip them of their ungodly wealth and influence, you may get a human being back.

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