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Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

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Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#51

Post by gwbas1c »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #44

Lots of privilege in this thread showing. This is the equivalent of "what global warming, it was so cold today". Please remember that just because you aren't expected to have consistent unpaid after-hours comms doesn't mean that others don't. Bills like this would help a lot of people who are victims of "can you just take a look at this real quick" at 6pm. It does need to be at the country level though, otherwise emp…

> It does need to be at the country level though, otherwise employers will just play off states against each other.

Laws like this often happen in the states first, if/when they catch on, it puts pressure on the federal government; often to avoid the confusion of 50 different variations on the law.

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#52

Post by idiotsecant »

nfw2 wrote: post #49
quadrifoliate wrote: post #44

Lots of privilege in this thread showing. This is the equivalent of "what global warming, it was so cold today". Please remember that just because you aren't expected to have consistent unpaid after-hours comms doesn't mean that others don't. Bills like this would help a lot of people who are victims of "can you just take a look at this real quick" at 6pm. It does need to be at the country level though, otherwise emp…

Most of the roles I've had involved irregular and long hours. In most cases, I've been happy to take these roles. The article isn't clear how exactly this is intended to work. I think no surprise hours that aren't recognized in the terms of employment makes sense. But also I think I should be able to agree to being available if I am willing to be. Remote Michigan tech workers already have enough trouble as tech compa…

This is simple. You're on call, you're paid to be on call. Anyone accepting anything different is encouraging this behaviour. Unionize and this goes away.

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#53

Post by SoftTalker »

pwg wrote: post #25
SoftTalker wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you draw the line? If the employer wants you to install a 2FA app on your phone, do you demand a separate phone or alternate 2FA device for that and mark yourself as a troublemaker? Or do you just do what 99.8% of the staff does and install the app?

> Where do you draw the line? If they want me to have some "special device", they pay for the hardware for me to have said "special device". My private phone is not for their use, ever.

Take for example a university. Many of them seem to use Duo[1], which is not something you can replace with Google Authenticator or other TOTP app. They require it for students as well as faculty and staff. Is it reasonable for them to have to provide a device to all those people, forcing them to carry two devices around, and then also deal with replacing lost or broken devices? The cost of this would simply be added to the technology fee that students have to pay, when they all already have smartphones and could use the app for no additional cost.

[1] https://duo.com/

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#54

Post by al_borland »

Where I work, in Michigan, people used to be compensated if they were called for on-call work. Then, probably 15 years ago, they decided to give everyone a little raise, based on how much on-call work they did in the previous year, then ended the extra payment for on-call. Anyone who was hired for, or moved into, a position that required on-call work got nothing and continues to get nothing.

I used to get called a lot, when my boss also ran the critical incident team. These days, I don’t get called much, the there is always a looming threat. I miss the days when being done with work meant that I was actually done with work.

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#55

Post by tbrownaw »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #44

Lots of privilege in this thread showing. This is the equivalent of "what global warming, it was so cold today". Please remember that just because you aren't expected to have consistent unpaid after-hours comms doesn't mean that others don't. Bills like this would help a lot of people who are victims of "can you just take a look at this real quick" at 6pm. It does need to be at the country level though, otherwise emp…

> a lot of people who are victims of

Are there statistics somewhere about what percent of people in various roles get asked but know they're safe declining, or mistakenly think they can't decline, or correctly think they'd get in trouble for declining, or don't get asked but think they have to anyway?

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#56

Post by idiotsecant »

SoftTalker wrote: post #9
pwg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. If $job is not willing to buy and hand me a "work phone" then they are out of luck, nothing for $job gets put onto my private phone. If they think they need this ability, then they also need to add a line item to their budgets for the cost of the phone and the service. And when faced with this alternative, they have not, so far, decided they want to pay for a phone.

Where do you draw the line? If the employer wants you to install a 2FA app on your phone, do you demand a separate phone or alternate 2FA device for that and mark yourself as a troublemaker? Or do you just do what 99.8% of the staff does and install the app?

Yes. That is where you draw the line. Work use of your personal device. Why is this so hard to imagine? If you're working somewhere where not donating resources to your employer means you are a troublemaker, it's time to find new work.

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#57

Post by siliconc0w »

nickjj wrote: post #18

I'm curious, how often are people getting contacted outside of work hours for "regular" jobs? I do SRE / Platform type of work where I'm technically on-call 24/7/365 but as a salaried worker I don't receive over time or anything like that. If an on-call event happens where I end up putting in 2 hours on a Saturday or Thursday night, I'd use my discretion to leave early or start late another day. In the roles where on…

Google pays their oncall a % of their full-time base salary depending on the oncall tier (5 min response time vs 30 minutes).

This should probably be required - there is a different mindset and set of restrictions when you're expected to pick up a page. It also forces companies to use on-call judiciously - not every service needs a 5 min SLO.

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#58

Post by roughly »

There's a weird incuriosity in the responses here for a place that calls itself Hacker News. "This doesn't happen to me" is about the least interesting or useful response you could have to someone telling you something happens to them. Someone is telling you the world works differently for them than it does for you, which means you've got an opportunity to learn something new about the world and expand your model. Every good hack comes from understanding the world well enough to see the hack in the first place - someone telling you about their lived experience of the world is a gift.

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#60

Post by Chu4eeno »

tbrownaw wrote: post #55
quadrifoliate wrote: post #44

Lots of privilege in this thread showing. This is the equivalent of "what global warming, it was so cold today". Please remember that just because you aren't expected to have consistent unpaid after-hours comms doesn't mean that others don't. Bills like this would help a lot of people who are victims of "can you just take a look at this real quick" at 6pm. It does need to be at the country level though, otherwise emp…

> a lot of people who are victims of Are there statistics somewhere about what percent of people in various roles get asked but know they're safe declining, or mistakenly think they can't decline, or correctly think they'd get in trouble for declining, or don't get asked but think they have to anyway?

I can recommend the documentary Office Space, it goes into great detail about this.
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