I've heard the opposite. That is was designed and based on military organisation and for individuals to conform to the contemporary world view.
Oh, well if you've heard it, then it must be true. Especially if ChatGPT said it.
The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)
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Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)
#22I've heard the opposite. That is was designed and based on military organisation and for individuals to conform to the contemporary world view.
This is true. While Humboldt designed the overarching structure of the school, Johann Gottlieb Fichte argued that Prussia lost to Napoleon because they were too individualistic and was able to influence ideas of early education in those schools. The aim, through Fichte, became a system designed to break parental bonds, who he believed filled kids heads with selfish, private interests, and in turn, the goal of educati…
Maybe the real lesson is that public education has always had both impulses: emancipation and formation on one hand, conformity and state needs on the other
Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)
#23There have been many wonderful ideas and concepts for education systems over the centuries. They have/had different, sometimes contradictory philosophies. Most fall short of their values and ambitions, regardless of what these are. IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization: (a) Resource constraints. Student/teacher ratios. The availability of good teachers, at scale. A great…
Having grown up in Germany I have firsthand experience how Humboldt's ideals fall short. I don't think I fully agree your explanation.
a) Teachers themselves went through this system, so if it's so great, it should produce plenty of great teachers
b) Now we are blaming the kids for the failure of the system?
c) Yes, absolutely, but is the bureaucracy really inevitable, or is it even contradictory to the original idea?
Anyhow, Humboldt's humanism was ideology from the start. It was a way to change as little as possible from christian values. Instead of God making humans all great now it is the great human mind and civilization.
By now, most of German academia is a bubble for humanistic fundamentalists, that have long lost their connection to reality.
Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)
#24"Soon, the state's influence on education took hold, with its own agenda. This is explored in part two of the documentary, Humboldt's Ghost." Part two link is not working... https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/audio/1.7175393
The title of pt. 2 is How our education system is far from its original ideals. It's available on apple and audible.
Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)
#25I was just reading Schillers letters on the Aesthetic Education of Man. It made me sad that we have such profound insight available on beauty and a fulfilling life, and still produce a school system that is completely contrary to a proper human existence. I also vividly recall pg’s reflections on the school system in Hackers and Founders. He was spot on with his observations and still is. My own experience made so mu…
> They dont learn proper reading and math, they dony learn creativity. Its just a big waste of time sending them there to be honest. Heck, they watch 1 hour of stupid TV shows there everyday.. why???
I am not in Amsterdam, but this seems very unexpectedly wrong. For as much as people complain about the US education system, I’ve been amazed watching how early my kids and friends’ kids at various schools around here have picked up reading and math. They’re learning these things earlier than I did as a child and earlier than I thought they would in the school system.
That’s not to say that every school is perfect, but it’s all been so much better than I would have expected from the extreme negative sentiment that I read online. The only explanation I can come up with is that school quality varies by a wide range from school to school or region to region, maybe more than the tests and statistics can show.
Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)
#26There have been many wonderful ideas and concepts for education systems over the centuries. They have/had different, sometimes contradictory philosophies. Most fall short of their values and ambitions, regardless of what these are. IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization: (a) Resource constraints. Student/teacher ratios. The availability of good teachers, at scale. A great…
It is naive to think that gradeschool is all about education when it serves so many other social functions. Firstly, it is free daily child care, a concept that allows parents to be more productive workers. A school is the point where various government agencies have contact with children. Vacinations, nutrition and the general welfare of kids is daily inspected. If a kid is in trouble, a teacher is the most likely government employee to notice. But perhaps most importantly, school is a testing ground. Our society doesnt have the resources to turn everyone into doctors and astronauts. School is where we start sorting out who will be granted access to future education and who will not. It isnt about actually learning anything.
Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)
#27The origins of mandatory education was Athens citizens being bamboozled by rhetoric all detailed here in this lecture https://youtu.be/H0z9sJyTv2w
Neitzsche had an interesting set of lectures he gave about the future of schools if you can get through the annoying style of a fictitious argument between philosopher and student. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/28146/28146-h/28146-h.htm
Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)
#28Also relevant:
Talks to Teachers on Psychology: And to Students on some of Life's Ideals by William James - https://www.gutenberg.org/files/16287/16287-h/16287-h.htm
What William James Still Teaches Us About Teaching: A Reflective Look at "Talks to Teachers" in Ed Psych Today - https://www.nzlamb.org/blog/what-william-james-still-teaches...
This 19th-Century Book Is Still Timely for Teachers - https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/opinion-this-19th-c...
William James’s pragmatism in education, from experiential learning to global application - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/2331186X.2026.2...
Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)
#29There have been many wonderful ideas and concepts for education systems over the centuries. They have/had different, sometimes contradictory philosophies. Most fall short of their values and ambitions, regardless of what these are. IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization: (a) Resource constraints. Student/teacher ratios. The availability of good teachers, at scale. A great…
Having grown up in Germany I have firsthand experience how Humboldt's ideals fall short. I don't think I fully agree your explanation. a) Teachers themselves went through this system, so if it's so great, it should produce plenty of great teachers b) Now we are blaming the kids for the failure of the system? c) Yes, absolutely, but is the bureaucracy really inevitable, or is it even contradictory to the original idea…
After WWI, the "Great War", everyone thought it was the final war, and would never be repeated. (So no profound changes in the educational system were applied).
After WWII, and observing how it could occur despite the recent occurrence of WWI, it was decided to put extra focus on the horrors of war in Western Europe.
Both on allied as well as axis side, sure, but especially on axis educational systems.
Having grown up in Belgium, I can confirm that the never-ending stream of unprompted details of the horrors of WWI and WWII were not exactly "fun" part of education, but hey at least we haven't been lobbing chemicals at each other for the last ~80 years, so at least it seems to work, here, locally in Western Europe, despite all the side-effects of such an education.
That said, I don't feel confident that any insights that may truly improve education in Western Europe (without losing the pacifying -as in peace generating- benefits somehow) would apply well to educational systems elsewhere, because a large fraction of negative side effects in Western European education stem precisely from the educational pivot after WWII.
Re: The origins of the school system aimed to produce independent, critical thinkers (2024)
#30There have been many wonderful ideas and concepts for education systems over the centuries. They have/had different, sometimes contradictory philosophies. Most fall short of their values and ambitions, regardless of what these are. IMO, the pressures leading to degradation are all somehow linked to universalization: (a) Resource constraints. Student/teacher ratios. The availability of good teachers, at scale. A great…
It is naive to think that gradeschool is all about education when it serves so many other social functions. Firstly, it is free daily child care, a concept that allows parents to be more productive workers. A school is the point where various government agencies have contact with children. Vacinations, nutrition and the general welfare of kids is daily inspected. If a kid is in trouble, a teacher is the most likely g…
And this is exactly why people are, have been, and should continue to opt out and/or opt in if they choose.
I appreciate your comment doesn't try to state if these are good or bad things, just that they are.