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Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

engadget.com

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Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#41

Post by abalashov »

These horrific things are multiplying exponentially in my (rural GA) environs. There are a dozen of them along every conceivable cycling route I could take, and far more if I drive somewhere. If you think this is a city thing meant to deter urban crime, the explosive proliferation of Flock cameras in quite rural and suburban areas may shock you. I find them in the darndest of places, near but not on county lines, adjacent to minor bridges, etc. And next time I go through there, there are more. They seem to be procreating.

As others have pointed out, they're not just ALPRs or traffic cameras, and their use-cases, official and unofficial, are extremely dynamic and expanding fast. They are not the only thing of their kind, but they justly earned the lightning rod status for their conspicuous cooperation with the administration's immigration thuggery and the douchy--but highly consequential--pronouncements of their CEO. Moreover, there's a ticker tape of daily news about police misuse of Flock's database, mainly for stalking exes and things like that.

This _is_ a stop on the way to a Chinese-style surveillance state, and there's nothing inevitable about it. But it will happen if we allow it to happen.

Ben Johnson's video on the security vulnerabilities, linked in the article, always deserves an explicit shout-out. It's likely to intrigue the tinkerers here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB0gr7Fh6lY

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#42

Post by righthand »

steelbrain wrote: post #21
righthand wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US cities are plenty safe. The fact that you think otherwise is propaganda you’ve been successfully served. I live in Nyc and visit other cities often.

You must live in a different New York City than the one I visited. I had the safety calibration of Tallinn, Estonia and Dubai, UAE. The subway was extremely hostile. People were regularly drugged out of their mind. I saw one guy try to drink a Coca Cola upside down and spilled it all in the bus. Another crazy chased my limited mobility Estonian friend who wanted to visit nyc alongside me when she went alone for groce…

These are all lies. Small towns have notiriously higher crime rates than Nyc. We should send the National Guard to your small town and place cameras every where. I dont feel safe in your small town. I moved away from middle America that’s swamped in meth, high murder rate, and racism. Sorry someone spilled a coca-cola though. Your pearls must be powder in your hands by now.

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#43

Post by [deleted] »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #32
icapybara wrote: post #6

We need some way to address the low level crime in the US. If you look at cities in east Asia, they're both much larger than typical US cities and much safer. It -is- possible to have safe large cities. The fact that we don't is a choice.

> If you look at cities in east Asia, they're... much safer. ah yes, the famously dependable statistics of east Asia, with their famously free press and citizen auditing communities, and the famously dependable impressions of tourists and expatriates...

[deleted]

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#44

Post by kurthr »

khuey wrote: post #22
epoxia wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's even more amazing is that they had these safe cities without [Flock, Motorola, Axon]. I guess we will never know how they did it, but at least we get the Chinese surveillance state.

My experience in major East Asian cities (predominantly Tokyo and Taipei) is that they have extensive networks of surveillance cameras operated by or accessible to the police.

Japanese police are very rarely willing to even ask to look at any of the disorganized hodgepodge of private cameras for property crimes or even minor physical altercations. They are far more likely to rely on personal accounts. TV dramas not withstanding.

Although Tokyo does have a system of traffic cameras which log traffic movement and license plates, that's most all that it does. Except in cases of murder or kidnapping (or political influence), it's quite rare to request the recordings of many private cameras. Outside of big cities, it's even more rare.

The largest connected system of cameras I'm aware of are for the subway camera systems (Shinjuku, Shinagawa, etc). Although independent systems, together they can do facial recognition to track individuals. Not a lot of AI yet, though.

In Tokyo, it is not uncommon to see bikes parked on residential streets with keys left overnight in their wheel locks (as if there aren't even mischievous 12 year olds?!). Oh, and outside of the cities, crime is even more rare. It is common in youth hostels for there to be open cubbies where personal items are stored in the front near the door. Nothing is taken. Most common thefts are: umbrellas (considered a fungible public good?), unlocked bikes (in high traffic business areas), women's underwear (off of outdoor drying racks).

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#45

Post by righthand »

Waterluvian wrote: post #20
righthand wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US cities are plenty safe. The fact that you think otherwise is propaganda you’ve been successfully served. I live in Nyc and visit other cities often.

It’s hard to distil to a single comment but I think it might be a poor example given the NYPD takes about double the budget per capita to be less safe than Toronto. I think the only objective conclusion we can come to in a comments section is that going by “I visited there” vibes isn’t going to be useful.

What about the high murder rate and meth problems of middle America, lets talk about that more instead of the “oh no homeless people” rhetoric all the time.

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#46

Post by righthand »

billfor wrote: post #34
righthand wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US cities are plenty safe. The fact that you think otherwise is propaganda you’ve been successfully served. I live in Nyc and visit other cities often.

I live in NYC and I don't think it is safe, so there's one person that disagrees with you. Part of the problem in NYC is when you commit a low-level crime the social-justice warriors let the person back out on the street without charging them. This is why when somebody kills somebody in NYC you often hear that the person had been arrested for various things twelve times earlier. Just covering up the "un-safeness" by…

This is a bail reform propaganda. If you feel unsafe because we dont put deoderant thieves in Rikers then move.

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#47

Post by Spooky23 »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #17
hombre_fatal wrote: post #14

Meanwhile in Texas we can’t even have red light cameras to automatically ticket people willing to kill you just to catch a light.

Honestly I like that policy. What's the legality of flock in Texas?

Totally legal.

The operating theory of all of these cameras is that anything happening in public sight is by its nature not private. The federal government is dumping millions and millions of dollars into grant programs for municipalities to buy it… It’s a giant federal surveillance program disguised as decisions made by individual police departments.

It’s hilarious and depressing to contrast the HN community reaction to Snowden versus the mostly meh response to flock.

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#48

Post by steelbrain »

beau_g wrote: post #28
steelbrain wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must live in a different New York City than the one I visited. I had the safety calibration of Tallinn, Estonia and Dubai, UAE. The subway was extremely hostile. People were regularly drugged out of their mind. I saw one guy try to drink a Coca Cola upside down and spilled it all in the bus. Another crazy chased my limited mobility Estonian friend who wanted to visit nyc alongside me when she went alone for groce…

You saw someone try to drink a soda upside down and spill it? We are going to need more than a Flock cam to stop that heinous act, perhaps a Flock robot arm that could grab the criminals arm and turn it right side up, or just restrain them while the authorities are on the way.

[flagged]

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#49

Post by abalashov »

dopidopHN2 wrote: post #33
khuey wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience in major East Asian cities (predominantly Tokyo and Taipei) is that they have extensive networks of surveillance cameras operated by or accessible to the police.

Flock is not the police. Their main customer is Home Depot. Their second one is Lowe's. Then come the big police department. Allowing a private company to profit of holding information about me is innerving to me. I would feel better if it was 100% run by the police. ( better, not good )

And it's not an accident that Flock cameras were implicated in many ICE raids at Home Depot and Lowe's, either.

Re: Flock cameras track more than your license plate, and they're spreading fast

#50

Post by righthand »

naturalmovement wrote: post #24
righthand wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US cities are plenty safe. The fact that you think otherwise is propaganda you’ve been successfully served. I live in Nyc and visit other cities often.

[flagged]

What about the meth heads shitting in the streets of the small town? Rampant assault and murder rates. What about all the drinking and driving killing people in America. No, no, it’s Nyc that’s scary.
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