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Feds Killed Polestar and Spared Volvo

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Re: Feds Killed Polestar and Spared Volvo

#91
post #67
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simple story is: If you go to China you will see US brands everywhere. If you go to the US, you will see Chinese brands nowhere.

Really, you will see TCL (and Hisense) nowhere in US? I recommend visiting any store selling TVs. Same goes for Thinkpad/Motorola, but I guess there at could argue these are not original Chinese brands.

Yes - really. The presence of US companies in China is huge and everywhere whereas the presence of Chinese companies in the US is tiny.

Re: Feds Killed Polestar and Spared Volvo

#92
post #58

If you go to China you will see plenty of KFC, Starbucks, Apple, and Tesla. American companies that all make billions out of the Chinese market. Yet the US government seems happy to play games like this; there must be someone thinking - hey the shoe could soon be on the other foot? Maybe we should cool it a bit ...

Anyway - the answer to the rhetorical question - is there anyone thinking "it could be our turn soon" - seems to be a resounding "no".

Re: Feds Killed Polestar and Spared Volvo

#93

Granted, it seems inconsistent to treat Volvo different from Polestar. It might be just, that Volvo will get the Axe in a separate process, it might be sheer incompetence of the US admin, or it might be a deliberate negotiation tactic. But what annoys me the most about the article is this constant praise of „China Speed“, Cost-Advantages and Love of the Free Market, as if not every single Chinese Automaker, including…

Everytime the issue of Chinese state subsidies comes up, two things occur to me.

First, a "subsidy" is just govt tax money. In other words it comes from somewhere. It is, in effect, the Chinese people, contributing to the creation, or development of an industry. Clearly the Chinese govt thinks this is a sound commercial strategy, and certainly from here (considering their global dominance in manufacturing) it appears to be working.

Secondly, it's not like all countries don't subsidize industries of their own. Although their decisions of what to subsidy varys a lot.

For example the US subsidizes weapons production. To the tune of a trillion $ a year. That spills over a bit into commercial stuff (Boeing for example.) And sure, there is some export value (although that may decline in the long term given current political isolationism.)

Of course you can't spend a trillion a year if the storehouse is full. It's necessary to expend some munitions from time to time to make room for new ones. But I digress.

To go back, when people complain that US products are expensive because of Chinese (or other) subsidies- just be aware that the US subsidizes more than most. They just target industries that have little to no economic value to US citizens, and which can't be purchased by domestic or indeed foreign citizens.

The US could easily subsidize electric cars, or solar, or wind manufacturing but it chooses to subsidize airplanes and naval ships and tank builders instead. It chooses to spend money on 2 million employees (armed forces) rather than on 2 million factory workers, or day-care facilitators, or health-care workers.

Re: Feds Killed Polestar and Spared Volvo

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Free market" implies regulators aren't picking winners and losers etc. If China subsidizes their export industry to make manufacturing in other countries uncompetitive then it's already not a free market. Ideally what you would want is to get China to stop doing that, but now propose a mechanism to get them to.

You make it sound like the US doesn't massively subsidise entire markets and then try to force other countries to accept these market distortions.

Expecting other countries to do the right thing while not doing it yourself makes you a hypocrite, it doesn't change what the right thing is.

Re: Feds Killed Polestar and Spared Volvo

#95

The entire article doesn't once stipulate that the grounds for banning a Chinese owned car is having telemetry that phones home to China. Maybe Volvo still does and it's a mystery why they can still sell here. Maybe Volvo doesn't and there is no story here. But if the car talks to China and gets updates from China, the US doesn't care if it's built here.

What does it even mean to "get updates from China"?

Software these days is distributed and globalized in virtually every sense. Polestar is headquartered in Sweden and much of their software development is in the UK.

Re: Feds Killed Polestar and Spared Volvo

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Free market" implies regulators aren't picking winners and losers etc. If China subsidizes their export industry to make manufacturing in other countries uncompetitive then it's already not a free market. Ideally what you would want is to get China to stop doing that, but now propose a mechanism to get them to.

Have you seen Polestar's pricing? They're very much positioned as the premium EV option and their pricing is pretty much the opposite of dumping.

Commercial airliners cost tens of millions of dollars, does that imply a company that makes them isn't being subsidized by their government?

China subsidizes (among other things) battery manufacturing, which is the biggest single cost for making EVs. If you get your batteries cheaper than competing companies then you can make premium cars with an electric range at the high end of the market and then use the subsidized cost to provide other amenities that cause customers to choose your product over alternatives even at a premium price. It allows you to take the high end of the market on value just as well as the low end on cost.

Re: Feds Killed Polestar and Spared Volvo

#97
post #95

The entire article doesn't once stipulate that the grounds for banning a Chinese owned car is having telemetry that phones home to China. Maybe Volvo still does and it's a mystery why they can still sell here. Maybe Volvo doesn't and there is no story here. But if the car talks to China and gets updates from China, the US doesn't care if it's built here.

What does it even mean to "get updates from China"? Software these days is distributed and globalized in virtually every sense. Polestar is headquartered in Sweden and much of their software development is in the UK.

There are no concrete guidelines or rules as this article illustrates.

Re: Feds Killed Polestar and Spared Volvo

#98

[flagged]

Our cheap exports: competitive, free markets maximizing efficiency and delivering value to consumers Their cheap exports: sinister pump and dump

Expats and immigrants, as long as we do it it's okay. Only possible when you lack self awareness and therefore can live with cognitive dissonance.

Re: Feds Killed Polestar and Spared Volvo

#99
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an official announcement this is the case or are you just making excuses for this administration?

He's just saying the article does not even discuss this vital distinction, let alone bring evidence either way.

It's impossible to prove the nonexistance and mentioning hearsay wouldn't be good.

The onus is on the commentator to substantiate his claims of there being a rationale.

Re: Feds Killed Polestar and Spared Volvo

#100
post #75

What makes a car ‘made in China’ (therefore over 100% tariffs) vs ‘assembled in the USA’ (therefore no tariffs)? The battery, engine and everything else is absolutely Chinese made. I don’t know how much assembly there is honestly but i feel the Geely, err i mean Polestar was a little close to that line. I will say the laws around this indicate just how ridiculous tariffs can be. There’s always some line to press up a…

the justification given for the ban (provided in other sources) is that Polestar's software stack is made in China. The theoretical spooky thing is China forcing some "evil" software update that stops all the Polestars. The Volvo distinction is ... I mean maybe the Volvo software stack is in Europe or the US. Maybe it's also in China! I do not really subscribe to this philosophy but what's going on isn't a "Polestar…

I think there's a reasonable argument that modern cars are so full of cameras and other surveillance gear that there should be some rules about where this data is sent and how it's handled.

Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be that.

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