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Zero-Downtime Deployments with Docker Compose – No Kubernetes Required

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Re: Zero-Downtime Deployments with Docker Compose – No Kubernetes Required

#71

Post by zug_zug »

brumar wrote: post #45

I remember a time where HN was quite critical to the complexity of k8s. After reading top comments, I can see the tide has shifted.

I used to be critical of almost everyone who used it. Now that I've been learning the ecosystem for a couple years, I'm not as angry about it, and it doesn't affect me as much personally.

I still think almost all of my complaints were valid: - not just container orchestration, more like a whole AWS solution (its own routing)

- has single-points of failure that would be avoided if you just used aws

- unnecessary complexity for almost all use cases

- ecosystem easily allows you to 2x-8x that complexity (helm+argocd+istio+carpenter+dozens more=hundreds of new failure modes)

- fundamentally moves many teams to a "I don't understand why my service is crashing, so let's just bring up more nodes every time rather than ever learning to debug it" mentality.

- All the feature teams that are supposed to "own their own kubernetes implementation for their own services" never do.

Of course a lot of that frustration is more at working at a place with a poorly-operated SOA where it takes a half-dozen services to send an email to a client or send a text or something silly. It sure is a waste of runway to obsess over a SOA when you aren't profitable yet.

But at this point it's sort of a sunk cost because it's become the industry standard. And AI can help with 90% of the complexity, which is it's own yellow-flag, but here we are.

Re: Zero-Downtime Deployments with Docker Compose – No Kubernetes Required

#72

Post by zug_zug »

JohnMakin wrote: post #51

It's exhausting reading about this stuff because there is inevitably a barrage of comments about "you don't need kubernetes, you can run your app out of a single vm you dumb trend chaser" in this style. Like, sorry, no, not to a point. Yes, if you have a small app without a lot of scale, and it doesn't need to be uber reliable and have very little if almost 0 downtime, okay, sure. Most use cases are like that! This i…

I mean dude, most of us did high-availability before kubernetes existed. Kubernetes didn't solve any unsolved problem, it just moved it from a gui to yaml.

You just used a load-balancer (an AWS one preferably) with a few machines behind it, optionally an auto-scale group. AWS has multi-region support built in.

Re: file descriptors -- that's not something handled by kubernetes, if anything you just have more layers now.

You don't need service discovery, you never did, Host your services at a private zone {service-name}.{env}.company.com zones which points to the loadbalancer.

You need monitoring and should use an observability solution for that, has 0 to do with kubernetes.

You're just taking a bunch of random entirely solved problems and for some reason suggesting kubernetes is somehow helpful for them.

Re: Zero-Downtime Deployments with Docker Compose – No Kubernetes Required

#73

Post by JohnMakin »

zug_zug wrote: post #72
JohnMakin wrote: post #51

It's exhausting reading about this stuff because there is inevitably a barrage of comments about "you don't need kubernetes, you can run your app out of a single vm you dumb trend chaser" in this style. Like, sorry, no, not to a point. Yes, if you have a small app without a lot of scale, and it doesn't need to be uber reliable and have very little if almost 0 downtime, okay, sure. Most use cases are like that! This i…

I mean dude, most of us did high-availability before kubernetes existed. Kubernetes didn't solve any unsolved problem, it just moved it from a gui to yaml. You just used a load-balancer (an AWS one preferably) with a few machines behind it, optionally an auto-scale group. AWS has multi-region support built in. Re: file descriptors -- that's not something handled by kubernetes, if anything you just have more layers no…

“we” is me. Kubernetes is easier. yes, file descriptors are handled by managed k8s. that was a small example. I could go much further with it. the ecosystem is far easier and I’d never go back to the way you’re describing because it is just rearchitecting the wheel.

You do need service discovery at some point at scale if you are using any kind of distributed system. that is quite a strong claim. what do you have to support that claim?

You sound like you’ve never really seen scale and I’m not sure how to respond in a way that is polite. It is heavily dependent on your use case and industry. if you can get by with docker containers, good for you! My only point is you are probably reinventing the wheel here.

Re: Zero-Downtime Deployments with Docker Compose – No Kubernetes Required

#76

Post by zug_zug »

JohnMakin wrote: post #73
zug_zug wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean dude, most of us did high-availability before kubernetes existed. Kubernetes didn't solve any unsolved problem, it just moved it from a gui to yaml. You just used a load-balancer (an AWS one preferably) with a few machines behind it, optionally an auto-scale group. AWS has multi-region support built in. Re: file descriptors -- that's not something handled by kubernetes, if anything you just have more layers no…

“we” is me. Kubernetes is easier. yes, file descriptors are handled by managed k8s. that was a small example. I could go much further with it. the ecosystem is far easier and I’d never go back to the way you’re describing because it is just rearchitecting the wheel. You do need service discovery at some point at scale if you are using any kind of distributed system. that is quite a strong claim. what do you have to s…

> You sound like you’ve never really seen scale and I’m not sure how to respond in a way that is polite.

Bro I've worked at meta, I've worked at places that handled 1billion requests a day with a team of 20 people. I have a lot of questions myself about your experience that might be impolite as well. The fact that you linked kubernetes and file descriptors makes me think you really don't actually have the baseline fundamentals at all here.

Re: Zero-Downtime Deployments with Docker Compose – No Kubernetes Required

#77

Post by JohnMakin »

zug_zug wrote: post #76
JohnMakin wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“we” is me. Kubernetes is easier. yes, file descriptors are handled by managed k8s. that was a small example. I could go much further with it. the ecosystem is far easier and I’d never go back to the way you’re describing because it is just rearchitecting the wheel. You do need service discovery at some point at scale if you are using any kind of distributed system. that is quite a strong claim. what do you have to s…

> You sound like you’ve never really seen scale and I’m not sure how to respond in a way that is polite. Bro I've worked at meta, I've worked at places that handled 1billion requests a day with a team of 20 people. I have a lot of questions myself about your experience that might be impolite as well. The fact that you linked kubernetes and file descriptors makes me think you really don't actually have the baseline fu…

bRo I wOrKeD aT mEtA

meta only uses inhouse tooling as far as I’m aware, so what exactly is your expertise you’re claiming here?

I didn’t claim kubernetes handles file descriptors, lol. I was saying single vm solutions hit these OS limits faster than you’d think. Try understanding the argument you’re responding to. You haven’t responded with anything of substance, so I can safely ignore you, especially given your comment history seems to have an overwhelming bias against kubernetes, which is weird. Have a good day.

Re: Zero-Downtime Deployments with Docker Compose – No Kubernetes Required

#78

Post by zug_zug »

JohnMakin wrote: post #77
zug_zug wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You sound like you’ve never really seen scale and I’m not sure how to respond in a way that is polite. Bro I've worked at meta, I've worked at places that handled 1billion requests a day with a team of 20 people. I have a lot of questions myself about your experience that might be impolite as well. The fact that you linked kubernetes and file descriptors makes me think you really don't actually have the baseline fu…

bRo I wOrKeD aT mEtA meta only uses inhouse tooling as far as I’m aware, so what exactly is your expertise you’re claiming here? I didn’t claim kubernetes handles file descriptors, lol. I was saying single vm solutions hit these OS limits faster than you’d think. Try understanding the argument you’re responding to. You haven’t responded with anything of substance, so I can safely ignore you, especially given your com…

You were the one who brought my experience, you were wrong. You can stop publicly embarrassing yourself at any point. I'm done reading it either way.

Re: Zero-Downtime Deployments with Docker Compose – No Kubernetes Required

#79

Post by nullpoint420 »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #66
nullpoint420 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I'll bite. What if your workload genuinely doesn't fit on one machine? Like load balancing or clustering 20+ nodes for LLM inference?

Your rebuttal to the parent claiming that almost nobody needs k8s is to bring up a workload almost nobody runs? It seems to me like your argument reinforces the parent's, not undermines it.

What workloads are other people running?

I wouldn't say my career is out of the ordinary, however most software I've built/maintained need more than one host.

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