Interesting that they don't seem to have had much cultural impact. I've never heard of these, never seen them in war films. You don't hear songs wistfully using a wartime ocarina or referring to them.
The US Army Issued Ocarinas to Soldiers in World War II
21–30 of 89 posts
Re: The US Army Issued Ocarinas to Soldiers in World War II
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
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It wasn’t slavery as they were paid and could be expected to be discharged at the cessation of hostilities. Conscription is as old as society itself.
> It wasn’t slavery as they were paid
Being paid some amount of money doesn't magically make it not slavery. Obvious counterpoint: what if a plantation owner "paid" each slave a single modern-day penny a year, would that make it okay?
> and could be expected to be discharged at the cessation of hostilities
Being let go when you're no longer needed doesn't stop it being slavery either. Would you no longer be a slave if the plantation owner released you after the harvest season? You'd just be re-captured for the next harvest, of course - either by the same owner or a different one.
> Conscription is as old as society itself.
So is slavery. That doesn't make it okay.
Definitions of forced labour, like the ILO Forced Labour Convention of 1930 for example, have to explicitly include "by the way, it's totally okay if it is done as part of mandatory military service" clauses for a reason.
There are obviously differences between traditional slavery and conscription, but conscription is still way closer to forced labour than it is to consensual service. Just look at what happens when you try to leave, for one!
Re: The US Army Issued Ocarinas to Soldiers in World War II
#23Re: The US Army Issued Ocarinas to Soldiers in World War II
#24The US military thought a lot about how to entertain its soldiers because there was a lot of downtime during a war and most of them were draftees who didn't necessarily want to be there, Another thing they did was publish pocket paperback editions of books back when paperbacks were less common. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Services_Editions
There were also the 2,400 specially-designed upright pianos it bought from Steinway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Vertical .
Re: The US Army Issued Ocarinas to Soldiers in World War II
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
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> It is called forced labour or slavery. In war, people who tolerate military conscription and discipline will conquer those who're slaves to pigheaded "you're not the boss of ME!" individualism. It'd be nice if humans would voluntarily abandon war someday. But a corollary of the First Commandment is to face facts.
> In war, people who tolerate military conscription and discipline will conquer those who're slaves to pigheaded "you're not the boss of ME!" individualism.
Sure, right up until it leads to fragging. During the Vietnam War about a thousand superiors were killed by their subjects. You can't give someone weapons, try to force them into a suicidal mission, and not expect them to use it to stop the mission. Give someone only a hammer and everything looks like a nail...
Re: The US Army Issued Ocarinas to Soldiers in World War II
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
I mean, to be fair, so is slavery. I think it's important to acknowledge that conscription is a violation of human rights, and absolutely a violation of human autonomy and dignity. The reason it exists is because historically, the primary source of military power has been the number of armed humans you can put on the battlefield. That's much less true now, but even in WWII the technology wasn't yet up to that point.…
You have the option to emigrate as opposed to fight, which is fundamentally what differentiates conscription from slavery (and human rights violations). You're not legally obligated to stay in your country.
Um...what?
Desertion has, historically, been a capital crime. Trying to paint conscription as not being a kind of captivity because "you're not legally obligated to stay in your country" is at best wildly disingenuous, and at worst just flat-out wrong.
I think you might need to take quite a bit more time to consider this issue, lest you prove your username much truer than you probably want.
Re: The US Army Issued Ocarinas to Soldiers in World War II
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
You have the option to emigrate as opposed to fight, which is fundamentally what differentiates conscription from slavery (and human rights violations). You're not legally obligated to stay in your country.
Um...what? Desertion has, historically, been a capital crime. Trying to paint conscription as not being a kind of captivity because "you're not legally obligated to stay in your country" is at best wildly disingenuous, and at worst just flat-out wrong. I think you might need to take quite a bit more time to consider this issue, lest you prove your username much truer than you probably want.
You can absolutely emigrate prior to the conscription coming to fruition. It has to be permanent, or it's draft evasion, but it is perfectly legal.
Sorry for the edits confusing things. I can see earlier how you thought I meant desertion as opposed to emigration.
Re: The US Army Issued Ocarinas to Soldiers in World War II
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
You have the option to emigrate as opposed to fight, which is fundamentally what differentiates conscription from slavery (and human rights violations). You're not legally obligated to stay in your country.
Um...what? Desertion has, historically, been a capital crime. Trying to paint conscription as not being a kind of captivity because "you're not legally obligated to stay in your country" is at best wildly disingenuous, and at worst just flat-out wrong. I think you might need to take quite a bit more time to consider this issue, lest you prove your username much truer than you probably want.
> Desertion has, historically, been a capital crime.
And it remained so for the US in WW2, although the sentence was carried out just once.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Slovik
Major General Norman "Dutch" Cota, who was at the execution, called it "the toughest 15 minutes of his life". For context, Cota was also present at the bloodbath on Omaha Beach, where he famously rallied troops.
Re: The US Army Issued Ocarinas to Soldiers in World War II
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
That doesn't make it not forced though. Most of this sub thread people who are unwilling to say "yeah it's forced labor and that's fine considering the details" doing mental gymnastics to make it not forced.
Just because something is forced, doesn’t make it slavery. I’m forced to pay taxes; that doesn’t make me a slave. Nor was a tenant farmer in the Middle Ages when required to provide corvée. I think the primary objection in this thread is to the use of the word slavery, which is simply not the same thing.
> Nor was a tenant farmer in the Middle Ages when required to provide corvée.
Many historians now concede that there is little to no meaningful difference between various forms of feudal servitude and slavery.
Slaves in the later Roman Empire also had certain rights, including the right to buy their own freedom in many cases. That doesn’t mean they weren’t slaves.
Re: The US Army Issued Ocarinas to Soldiers in World War II
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
In peacetimes, yes, but if it's defensive war I don't see many arguments against a draft, it can't be generalized though.
If there's anything worth defending, people will volunteer to defend it.
Indeed, and there are many historical examples of this.
Today’s average Western nation-state tends to be a rathole that spits into the faces of its citizens every single day, until the moment the state is under attack, at which point everyone is told that they owe their lives to their sacred motherland that has done so much for them.