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Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part III: Paying for It

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Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part III: Paying for It

#21
post #16
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most likely not. The price to pay people to get them to do something must exceed the opportunity cost of them not doing that something. Raising an army from your people, if they don't fight alongside you they are probably facing a pretty suboptimal situation - their crops burned, their cities looted, their wives and daughters raped, foreign oppression, etc. This risk may be small, while stepping onto the battlefield…

If I understand it, Brett's central point is that early states lacked free capital to actually "pay" anyone and so levee-en-mass was compulsion for food, or forage/pillage and obligations driven not cash driven. England was an early progenitor of paid soldiers and had an effect on the conduct 0f European wars, not entirely beneficial. But that's long after ancient times. My point is that history records ancient state…

10 years of respite is nothing on the scale of countries.

History is littered with examples of states choosing to pay off their would-be attackers, and seeing it as success or failure depends on your priors.

Byzantium was especially adept at this, for centuries, and they did fine for a millenium, but more often than not it was seen as a temporary, last resort measure, with large downsides, and generally to avoid creating a new front while a more critical war was being waged elsewhere.

By paying off your enemies, you strengthen their armies, you give them an incentive to ask for more and more each year (because they know you wouldn't have paid if you weren't weak), as a rule they will regularly pillage your countryside to encourage you to pay, and they will mostly use the money you pay them as investment to launch attacks against you at the first opportunity.

For Byzantium, this was the case with Arabs, Bulgarians, Crusaders, etc., and over time it led to ruin. Though it also led to overall great outcomes with Armenians and Iberians, who became vassal states.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part III: Paying for It

#22
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know about instances when it was tried, and usually failed, but we also know about the rest of history when as far as we know it wasn’t tried or even contemplated for the exact reasons the OP stated. > The pre-french kings paid off The tribes who eventually became the Normans. Probably the worst decision any French leader, possibly any European leader, ever made. It could be argued that this lead to at least 600 y…

> It could be argued that this lead to at least 600 years of pain until the Normans aristocracy (now English) gave up trying to take France. You're rewriting history here. "The normans" were completely integrated in the French aristocracy, and that's why the kings of England took part in the successoral struggle. The 100 year war was started by the grandson of Philippe IV, of the french Capet dynasty, fighting agains…

I am not rewriting history, just giving a perspective.

The Norse raiders were given land and in exchange they would stop raiding. Paying off the aggressors.

These Norse became known as the Normans, took the English crown only a few generations after settling and then claimed the French crown.

Taking England gave them enough power to war with France for hundreds of years.

Paying off raiders, time and time again, cost France and never ended the threat. William The Conqueror’s descendants didn’t stop claiming France until around 1800.

But I totally do give you that by the 100 year war they were now English not Norse.

But in the modern West we have a very short 24 hour attention span. In other cultures and other time periods people had long memories. I could imagine Rollo telling his son to finish what his ancestors started. And eventually William telling his sons.

That’s my perspective.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part III: Paying for It

#23
post #5

If you can afford to pay am army you can afford to pay the opposing side instead. And, many fine arguments abound for paying off potential invaders. It may be cheaper, and it may include paying them to go and attack somebody else.

You should never consider that unless it is very obvious the other side will steamroll you. In that case you become a vassal state of bigger empire, which has different downsides, but it might be your only choice. Otherwise everyone can just come and keep extracting free stuff from you until you can neither pay the tributes nor defend yourself.

In a violent world we actually see the opposite: people become hyper violent when threatened or even when someone disrespects their honour. It seems irrational, but the fact that we see this behaviour consistently in violent environments means it is evolutionary stable.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part III: Paying for It

#24
post #11
post #5

If you can afford to pay am army you can afford to pay the opposing side instead. And, many fine arguments abound for paying off potential invaders. It may be cheaper, and it may include paying them to go and attack somebody else.

Most likely not. The price to pay people to get them to do something must exceed the opportunity cost of them not doing that something. Raising an army from your people, if they don't fight alongside you they are probably facing a pretty suboptimal situation - their crops burned, their cities looted, their wives and daughters raped, foreign oppression, etc. This risk may be small, while stepping onto the battlefield…

Nevertheless it was quite common for the Romans to pay off Germanic tribes. Equally it was common for them to demand tribute from weaker neighbours.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part III: Paying for It

#25
post #24
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most likely not. The price to pay people to get them to do something must exceed the opportunity cost of them not doing that something. Raising an army from your people, if they don't fight alongside you they are probably facing a pretty suboptimal situation - their crops burned, their cities looted, their wives and daughters raped, foreign oppression, etc. This risk may be small, while stepping onto the battlefield…

Nevertheless it was quite common for the Romans to pay off Germanic tribes. Equally it was common for them to demand tribute from weaker neighbours.

It was also quite common for them to assassinate their emperors, to engage in civil war, to debase their currency so as to pay soldiers more, to hire barbarian mercenaries, etc. It is one thing to acknowledge these things happened, it is quite another to argue these were economically rational actions in the best interest of Rome.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part III: Paying for It

#26
post #16
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most likely not. The price to pay people to get them to do something must exceed the opportunity cost of them not doing that something. Raising an army from your people, if they don't fight alongside you they are probably facing a pretty suboptimal situation - their crops burned, their cities looted, their wives and daughters raped, foreign oppression, etc. This risk may be small, while stepping onto the battlefield…

If I understand it, Brett's central point is that early states lacked free capital to actually "pay" anyone and so levee-en-mass was compulsion for food, or forage/pillage and obligations driven not cash driven. England was an early progenitor of paid soldiers and had an effect on the conduct 0f European wars, not entirely beneficial. But that's long after ancient times. My point is that history records ancient state…

There is a wide gulf between arguing something happened on occasion and arguing it was a sound idea. History records ancient states performing human sacrifice to make the sun rise again. It's likely these people saw it as a good idea, and hey the sun kept rising for years, but you'd have a hard time convincing me it was economical compared to alternative options.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part III: Paying for It

#27
"a skilled blacksmith probably didn’t come from a farm and certainly isn’t going back to one."

How certain is that really? I read a very niche, but very well researched book about local violin makers in my region, and there were hundreds, and that "didn't include the ones who merely made one or two fiddles as a project" according to the authors. All the people they listed did it as a side gig to their farming.

People here had time they couldn't just sink into doing more farming and fishing. All primary industries have natural downtime. They very often spent that on specializing, often into useful things like cobbling, shipbuilding or carpentry, but also into less immediately useful things like making musical instruments or elaborate altar pieces for the churches. So what makes blacksmithing so special a guy who learned it would never "go back to a farm"?

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part III: Paying for It

#28
post #26
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand it, Brett's central point is that early states lacked free capital to actually "pay" anyone and so levee-en-mass was compulsion for food, or forage/pillage and obligations driven not cash driven. England was an early progenitor of paid soldiers and had an effect on the conduct 0f European wars, not entirely beneficial. But that's long after ancient times. My point is that history records ancient state…

There is a wide gulf between arguing something happened on occasion and arguing it was a sound idea. History records ancient states performing human sacrifice to make the sun rise again. It's likely these people saw it as a good idea, and hey the sun kept rising for years, but you'd have a hard time convincing me it was economical compared to alternative options.

Only if you frame it as an attempt to keep the sun rising via blood sacrifice. If instead the priesthood is a power faction within the civilization's various power brokers, and it's all political, then blood sacrificing your "randomly" selected rival's daughter is going to be much more economical than not sacrificing her, and having your political rival be stronger than you.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part III: Paying for It

#29
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is indeed one of the many hazards and risks which pre-modern states seemed to have grappled with, according to the linked blog series. You may find the series to be an interesting read to see one historian's overview on how pre-modern states were to varying degrees exposed to, managed, and suffered the consequences of, said risk!

> pre-modern USA agreed to pay Iran to not attack just this month.

That money was confiscated from Iran in the first place though.
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