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Data centers trigger voter backlash

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Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#331

Post by Gud »

WarmWash wrote: post #324
mrtesthah wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really a matter of "national security" when the technology at hand is being used in a way that unilaterally benefits a small class of oligarchs at the expense of the rest of society? That's not really in the benefit of the nation anymore, is it?

The technology at hand is essentially a genius in your pocket being given away for $20/mo. I mean yeah, $20 is greater than free, but let's have a least a mild level of honesty here

It’s being “given away” by the dominating actors to suppress competition, let’s not pretend we’re getting a great deal here just because for a brief period we’re getting a small discount on LLMs.

How about them DRAM prices?

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#332

Post by cobbzilla »

AngryData wrote: post #306
cobbzilla wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the irony of making an implied point that data centers aren’t useful, by using data centers.

Pretty sure hackernews doesn't take a giant datacenter to run. Its a text-only website managed by nerds. If HN didn't care about redundancy they could probably host it out of somebody's basement.

And there are zero data centers in between facilitating anything?

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#333

Post by miiiiiike »

micro2588 wrote: post #295
miiiiiike wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should have been building additional nuclear capacity for the past 50 years. The kinds of anti data center activism we’re seeing now was directed at nuclear back then. It would take decades to build enough data centers to use 100% of the station’s capacity. We can build capacity as we build consumers. It’s all about balance. I also don’t believe that we’re going to be building all of the 1200 proposed data centers…

Being next to a nuclear power plant but attached to a regional grid is not that relevant in terms of total additive emissions from a data center build out. You have to look at the change in emissions of the grid as a whole. Companies are incentivized to care about disclosing a narrow boundary view of scope 1 & 2 emissions but we live in the real world not a spreadsheet. US electrical emissions YOY increased in part d…

I’ve made a few comments around this. I’m going to wind down my involvement in this thread.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#334

Post by justcool393 »

adamsb6 wrote: post #135
thewillowcat wrote: post #93

I can tell you, based on local examples, that politicians are setting up deals to bring in data centers without trying to build community support first. Not only that, they are often signing NDAs that prohibit them from telling voters what they have agreed to. It's no way to operate in a democracy, and voters are right to be angry.

I’m a voter who prefers we establish rules that be followed rather than encumber every project with a lengthy community dialogue.

in a lot of cases, the leaders of the communities are not following the rules. (see the ppl talking about ndas and such)

in any case, this isn't like "oh we don't want to build an apartment building because it might drop the value of a single family home halfway across town."

it isn't even like "we want to build this train line which will have some negative externalities but the positive effects (and externalities) are worth taking a hit in some areas"

the problems with the datacenters are that like (1) the service its providing (LLMs) has dubious societal value, (2) the direct negative effects such as noise pollution and such have been pretty well documented, (3) the indirect negative effects like massive strain on infra and (4) the people pushing them most heavily are effectively attempting to invade the communities, peddle conspiracy theories about "china" being behind the opposition, and demand to be specially treated because they were bankrolled by big tech, etc.

some people when this topic come up act like anyone opposed is some nimby who hates societal progress or smth and who is super concerned about that their home estimate might go down. but like communities do recognize the need for zoning and restricting certain things being built.

you need the thing being built to both (a) actually be a good that helps the community (or have a very very good reason why some damage to the community is justifiable (datacenter projects generally don't) and (b) need to contain negative externalities (which is why we don't put the chemical plant next to the elementary school even if it's the most economic option). people recognize these things on some level.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#335

Post by oatmeal1 »

adamsb6 wrote: post #135
thewillowcat wrote: post #93

I can tell you, based on local examples, that politicians are setting up deals to bring in data centers without trying to build community support first. Not only that, they are often signing NDAs that prohibit them from telling voters what they have agreed to. It's no way to operate in a democracy, and voters are right to be angry.

I’m a voter who prefers we establish rules that be followed rather than encumber every project with a lengthy community dialogue.

In general yes, but a datacenter is to many people a categorically different kind of development because they oppose AI companies. The first datacenter should trigger a lengthy discussion and create rules that apply to all further datacenters.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#336

Post by kannanvijayan »

jcgrillo wrote: post #296
rescripting wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may come as a surprise to you, but people like living in pleasant surroundings. Just because I own the land does not mean I can open an abattoir next to an elementary school. Using land in different ways results in externalities that affect those around it. The people of a community should have some right to protect themselves from those externalities. How that happens in practice is a deeply flawed, messy, ugly…

The next town over from where I live has basically no rules. No zoning, if you want to turn your property into a junkyard go right ahead! Even still, people are successfully fighting against a trash company putting in a landfill. I believe the levers they're pulling are a state wetlands permit and a state solid waste permit. The system is working.

Isn't that just leveraging the benefit of having access to a higher level of government which does have rules?

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#337

Post by [deleted] »

anthonypasq wrote: post #163
spencerflem wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One refrigerator sized rack at a datacenter takes as much power as 150 homes, and they’re using it for technology that disempowers and annoys people. It’s pretty obviously offensive. All for rezoning golf courses too

> One refrigerator sized rack at a datacenter takes as much power as 150 homes Is this supposed to scare me or something? I can't even fathom the actual point you are trying to make if it doesn't involve me having an emotional response to this statement.

[deleted]

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#338

Post by esalman »

adamsb6 wrote: post #135
thewillowcat wrote: post #93

I can tell you, based on local examples, that politicians are setting up deals to bring in data centers without trying to build community support first. Not only that, they are often signing NDAs that prohibit them from telling voters what they have agreed to. It's no way to operate in a democracy, and voters are right to be angry.

I’m a voter who prefers we establish rules that be followed rather than encumber every project with a lengthy community dialogue.

Is this why you're in the minority?

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#339

Post by qsxfthnkp2322 »

Maybe we should charge data centers double the tax rate so that they can fund that universal welfare and healthcare all the ai ceos keep talking about when we all are out of work.

There no reason to give them tax breaks. They don’t do anything of substance to the local economy.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#340

Post by jcgrillo »

kannanvijayan wrote: post #336
jcgrillo wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next town over from where I live has basically no rules. No zoning, if you want to turn your property into a junkyard go right ahead! Even still, people are successfully fighting against a trash company putting in a landfill. I believe the levers they're pulling are a state wetlands permit and a state solid waste permit. The system is working.

Isn't that just leveraging the benefit of having access to a higher level of government which does have rules?

Sure, and why not? And there's an even higher level of government above that one. And if we really start misbehaving, there's an international level above that one... I think computer nerds call that kind of thing "defense in depth".
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