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The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

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Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#231

Post by Magnusmaster »

kklisura wrote: post #111
tqi wrote: post #58

> You’re not happy about it, but you hand over a photo of your passport and hope it doesn’t come back to haunt you. I think for this argument to carry weight with voters, privacy advocates need to be much more specific about what "coming back to haunt you" looks like. They do a little bit of it later on[1], but I think most people do a rough cost benefit in their head and decide that the small benefit outweighs the s…

> privacy advocates need to be much more specific I'm starting to think we need to lean on conspiracy theories in order to get broader population on train with this - and I'm saying this in utmost regret. That's a borrowing game from a right wing/extremist playbook. Start with this: requiring IDs online is a first step in micro-chipping the population. ...or how about this: marxists/atifa/nazis/zionists/islamist/whoe…

Just say that the government will control every single device that's controlled to the Internet and they can add government viruses that you can't remove and they can remotely control all of your devices and brick them if you try to send anything that the government doesn't like.

That's not even an exaggeration, once they enforce OS-level age verification via remote attestation they don't even have to pass a law to do this, they can send a secret order to Big Tech to do this.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#232

Post by laughing_man »

worble wrote: post #67
gruez wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm meant me, using my 18+ ID to generate a bunch of tokens that can't be linked back to me, and then giving it to random < 18 year olds for the lulz.

What's to stop you, using your 18+ ID from buying crates of alcohol and giving it to random < 18 year olds for the lulz?

The minute this scheme went into place, there would be sites based in one of the "stans" selling tokens for a couple bucks to whomever wanted to buy.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#233

Post by laughing_man »

nemomarx wrote: post #77
andai wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what direction do the incentives point?

There's two strong incentives - deanonymization for law enforcement is pretty useful so that's one. You want to make it easier to subpoena information about posters for various reasons, access to stores on different dates etc. Lots of reasons for that. And you want to satisfy voters who are worried about children online or have heard scary things about anonymous criminals. You want to be seen to do something about th…

>There's two strong incentives - deanonymization for law enforcement is pretty useful so that's one.

When you say it like that it sounds less scary than "deanoymization so the government can track down people saying things it doesn't like." Let's not forget the UK has more people in jail for things they said on the internet than Russia and China put together.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#234

Post by pibaker »

rockskon wrote: post #63
ricree wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main issue is that they are very careful not to frame it like that. In broader contexts, it's always framed as something like "do you favor limiting children's access to social media" without a word on what it would cost to actually institute such a ban.

It's about as meaningful a framing as asking if you favor world peace and ending world hunger.

You can end all wars and eliminate hunger if you point the Death Star at us and kill all life on earth. If someone objects to the collateral damage, remind him that when you said "world peace and no hunger at all costs," you meant all costs.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#235

Post by johnc1 »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #171
Morromist wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why the act of buying internet access isn't considered a parental control. I doubt very many kids are doing it or can. Ok, but parents buy internet access and then let their kids use it, because the kids need it for school. So? The parents job is to keep their kids out of trouble. Learning how to keep track of what their kids access shouldn't be difficult, and maybe should be part of the obligation…

> The parents job is to keep their kids out of trouble. Learning how to keep track of what their kids access shouldn't be difficult Unfortunately it is, but we could fix that with only minimally invasive legislation. Right now you either whitelist which breaks half the internet on a recurring basis (things are constantly changing) or you blacklist which is swiss cheese. Either way you're relying on third parties. I t…

Exactly! We already have content tags on TV/Movies, just extend it to the web and make mandatory.

I imagine it could be not trivial to enforce (esp. for offshore web) - but definitely easier than enforcing the same sites to implement much more complicated identity verification (while preferably also not leaking this data).

But that might not even be necessary. A small on-device AI can probably do a decent job classifying pretty much everything we don't want children to see - with and option for parents to override it when needed.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#236

Post by pibaker »

drooby wrote: post #162
Aurornis wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's their parents' decision to make, not yours.

Should it also be their decision that they can gamble? Smoke cigarettes? Get a job? Have sex? We draw the line somewhere because these things that "are the parents' decision" have consequences on broader society. They have consequences that impact you and me. And we also have a say. You can make the argument that it's just the parents' decision. But you have to say why.

The idea that browsing the internet is remotely comparable to smoking is utterly retarded.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#237

Post by 7e »

Aurornis wrote: post #131
andrewla wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article talks about the possibilities of malicious cloning of these tokens by third parties, but fails to identify the much more common use case, and one that makes this scheme useless for age verification. It's one thing to be concerned about someone stealing my credential, but another to prevent the transfer of these credentials, especially if they are limited use credentials. The entire point of age verificati…

Yes, this is the part of the issue that is so frequently ignored: Anonymous age verification schemes are easily defeated through proxying because there wouldn't be any consequences for selling your tokens. "Install this app on your phone and we'll pay you $1 per day" and it will mint your anonymous identity tokens and send them off to kids who want to buy them. If there's no way to track the tokens, there is no possi…

Trusted computing solves this problem handily.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#238

Post by 7e »

pastel8739 wrote: post #202
DennisP wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They become a traceable identity token Not if you use a challenge-response protocol where the client returns a zero-knowledge proof of age, where the proof incorporates a random string sent by the website. The traceable stuff is private information that the website never sees. If a minor is caught with it, then law enforcement has local access to the minor's hardware and can probably view the private data. At that…

This doesn’t stop the scheme the parent proposes, where adults install some proxy on their device and challenges are responded to on the parent device. Then the private key never leaves the parent device and all the child device has is the proxy software, which could be set up to not log any identifier of the key that it used

[flagged]

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#239

Post by 7e »

pastel8739 wrote: post #202
DennisP wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They become a traceable identity token Not if you use a challenge-response protocol where the client returns a zero-knowledge proof of age, where the proof incorporates a random string sent by the website. The traceable stuff is private information that the website never sees. If a minor is caught with it, then law enforcement has local access to the minor's hardware and can probably view the private data. At that…

This doesn’t stop the scheme the parent proposes, where adults install some proxy on their device and challenges are responded to on the parent device. Then the private key never leaves the parent device and all the child device has is the proxy software, which could be set up to not log any identifier of the key that it used

Trusted computing fixes this up to the analog hole. Which is as much as you can expect.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#240

Post by pibaker »

kulahan wrote: post #186
iamnothere wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens when parents don’t lock the liquor cabinet? When they smoke in front of their kids? When they leave porn laying on the table? Too bad!

You need an ID to access cigarettes and liquor and porn (from a physical store)...

My parents always kept a few bottles of wine in a cabinet in the living room. If 8 year old me wanted wine, I could have drunk a whole bottle while they were away and there was no way they could have stopped me. Yet I didn't drink my parents' wine, nor did I grow up alcoholic.
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