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The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

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Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#121

Post by rockskon »

teravor wrote: post #103
rockskon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So....what exactly would platform detection mechanisms be basing their decisions off of that wouldn't defeat the entire privacy-preserving premise of ZKP?

multiple use of the same token on multiple accounts...? tying multiple accounts and services together isn't ideal but its inarguably better than tying your real world identity to every single service.

Wait - so you're advocating for use of a persistent identifier tied to a person? How is that any different than what advertising networks do right now beyond giving them additional guaranteed information of your age bracket?

To clarify - it's not cryptographically necessary to present the same token for each and every transaction and serves to categorically defeat the entire privacy guarantee of ZKP.

It also makes it trivial to associate your ZKP token with your real identity.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#122

Post by Aurornis »

vkou wrote: post #113
Aurornis wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's anonymous. The clerk or his POS system knows your name and age, but doesn't know your number. The vendor providing the tape doesn't know your number or your name. Where does this 3rd party identity token provider come from? For government-issued identity tokens, there are not separate parties. It's just the government, and they can choose to link whatever they want in their internal system if they decide it's…

> Where does this 3rd party identity token provider come from? Some oracle whose job it is to print tokens and hand out rolls to the stores (and to the websystems). They would know which store got which roll, and which website authenticated it, but not who each ticket from that roll went to. With a big enough roll, this is essentially anonymous. Yes, lotteries know which store got the winning ticket, but they have no…

I'm talking about identity token services.

You're saying the real solution is that we bring in a private, 3rd-party company to start checking our IDs to access websites now?

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#123

Post by onetimeusename »

j2kun wrote: post #21

There are at least some technological solutions here, such as anonymous credentials. [1] Modern versions of this technique allow one to associate metadata (like a proof of age exceeding a threshold) in such a way that the verifier can't even correlate repeated requests across users. Governments that are serious about age verification and individual privacy (which, doubtful they truly are) should agree on a protocol a…

I don't think they are serious about privacy and even if they were I don't even want to distinguish between "children" and "adults" on the internet. Things seem to have worked fine up to this point, there doesn't appear to be a public demand for age verification, rather some murky corporations/NGOs/agencies pushing for this. I think it's pretty clear there is some other intention besides protecting children that is the goal here.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#124

Post by causality0 »

ricree wrote: post #57
miiiiiike wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even on Hacker News the consensus is mostly in favor of anything from age restriction to making all social media illegal. That doesn't sound right. Put up a poll. I'd put money on 90%+ choosing some flavor privacy/anonymity on the internet.

The main issue is that they are very careful not to frame it like that. In broader contexts, it's always framed as something like "do you favor limiting children's access to social media" without a word on what it would cost to actually institute such a ban.

You don't necessarily have to be in favor of any measures which reduce adult privacy to be in favor of that. Logically speaking, the liability for minors accessing age-gated products and services is the person who provides those products and services to the minor. In the case of the internet, that person is the parent, not the ISP or the website. It is the parent who contracts with the provider and then forwards the product to the unauthorized user, the child. A parent who purchases, say, access to porn and then provides that access to their child is no different than a parent who buys booze and provides access to it to their child.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#125

Post by Geezus_42 »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #59

This seems more like a technical problem that we could actually solve well if we wanted to and had competent people advising the governments. You go to DMV and they generate a keypair and an entry in a DB. App looks up your age with your public key + signed private key authorization from you. Apps can ask for specific checks like is_over_21, is_citizen or whatever without any more data. Something like that, details a…

There's still a whole DB matching IDs to keys waiting to be leaked. The US government can't even keep it's own personnel records safe and you think this won't get stolen and used to target people?

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#126

Post by johnc1 »

kaashif wrote: post #110
johnc1 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a much easier solution that already exists - parental controls on children's devices. I honestly don't understand why is it not solving the problem? Yes, parents are responsible to set this up. But parents are also responsible to lock their alcohol, drugs or guns, condoms, etc., and many other things. Perhaps parental controls are not good enough? That's where the regulation could genuinely help - require ch…

That's not the problem governments are solving. They're solving the problem of convincing the public it's a good idea to end the anonymity of internet use.

I know! What puzzles me is responses every such article gets even on HN - let's build some cool tech that 95% of the general population and 100% of politicians won't even understand not to mention agree to.

Yes, government want to end anonymity and that's clear to some. But governments enjoy on a pretty broad support for this and many people supporting this believe it's a real problem. Suggesting to leave it unsolved or solve it in a way they can't trust or understand is only going to alienate them, making the government job easier.

I think suggesting a simple, cheap and effective solution to this problem that has no impact on privacy is a way better way to counter that. I think local parental controls fits the bill.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#127

Post by refurb »

kaashif wrote: post #110
johnc1 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a much easier solution that already exists - parental controls on children's devices. I honestly don't understand why is it not solving the problem? Yes, parents are responsible to set this up. But parents are also responsible to lock their alcohol, drugs or guns, condoms, etc., and many other things. Perhaps parental controls are not good enough? That's where the regulation could genuinely help - require ch…

That's not the problem governments are solving. They're solving the problem of convincing the public it's a good idea to end the anonymity of internet use.

Precisely. The people in power would love nothing more than to stop “disinformation” (facts that cause social unrest).

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#128

Post by vkou »

Aurornis wrote: post #122
vkou wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where does this 3rd party identity token provider come from? Some oracle whose job it is to print tokens and hand out rolls to the stores (and to the websystems). They would know which store got which roll, and which website authenticated it, but not who each ticket from that roll went to. With a big enough roll, this is essentially anonymous. Yes, lotteries know which store got the winning ticket, but they have no…

I'm talking about identity token services. You're saying the real solution is that we bring in a private, 3rd-party company to start checking our IDs to access websites now?

I was asked if this problem can be solved in an anonymous manner. I gave a solution that is pretty anonymous and fairly cheap.

I am not actually advocating for it. I'm just saying how it's possible to solve it given those constraints.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#129

Post by [deleted] »

johnc1 wrote: post #106
j2kun wrote: post #21

There are at least some technological solutions here, such as anonymous credentials. [1] Modern versions of this technique allow one to associate metadata (like a proof of age exceeding a threshold) in such a way that the verifier can't even correlate repeated requests across users. Governments that are serious about age verification and individual privacy (which, doubtful they truly are) should agree on a protocol a…

There is a much easier solution that already exists - parental controls on children's devices. I honestly don't understand why is it not solving the problem? Yes, parents are responsible to set this up. But parents are also responsible to lock their alcohol, drugs or guns, condoms, etc., and many other things. Perhaps parental controls are not good enough? That's where the regulation could genuinely help - require ch…

[deleted]

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#130

Post by liveoneggs »

kulahan wrote: post #25

I can’t think of a better solution to the issue of children being so aggressively harmed by the internet. That doesn’t remove any of the problems associated with this.

Most people want to operate within the boundaries of their society.

A simple G/PG/PG-13/R header for websites would solve 97% of actual issues anyone could care to present. (violence, porn, etc)

Forcing people to identify themselves will not solve skinner boxes, gambling-for-children, focus-degrading slop, etc.

Bluey-themed slot machines are still harmful.

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