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IBM debuts sub-1 nanometer chip technology

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Re: IBM debuts sub-1 nanometer chip technology

#151

Post by jcgrillo »

topspin wrote: post #38
giwook wrote: post #2

How does IBM commercialize this? Do they license this out to fabs?

> Do they license this out to fabs? Broadly speaking yes, this is the business model. IBM has been at this for many years with technology transfers, licensing agreements, support and other arrangements. Rapidus, Samsung, GlobalFoundries, ST, SMIC, AMD, etc. have all used IBM R&D work at various times for various nodes and products. The cutting edge of semiconductors is a writhing mass of copulating tapeworms, and IBM…

> a writhing mass of copulating tapeworms

What a metaphor! I will file that one away for some glorious future opportunity.

Re: IBM debuts sub-1 nanometer chip technology

#152

Post by topspin »

jcgrillo wrote: post #151
topspin wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do they license this out to fabs? Broadly speaking yes, this is the business model. IBM has been at this for many years with technology transfers, licensing agreements, support and other arrangements. Rapidus, Samsung, GlobalFoundries, ST, SMIC, AMD, etc. have all used IBM R&D work at various times for various nodes and products. The cutting edge of semiconductors is a writhing mass of copulating tapeworms, and IBM…

> a writhing mass of copulating tapeworms What a metaphor! I will file that one away for some glorious future opportunity.

Credit to Alan Cox. I filed it away after he wrote it in a LKML message many years ago.

Re: IBM debuts sub-1 nanometer chip technology

#153

Post by georgeburdell »

rbanffy wrote: post #110
georgeburdell wrote: post #93

IBM debuts a PDK and some test structures, as they have no production fabs

They have small scale fabrication capabilities or they wouldn’t be able to validate the technology enough to sell it.

Tell me where I said they didn’t have fabs

Re: IBM debuts sub-1 nanometer chip technology

#154

Post by dboreham »

topspin wrote: post #38
giwook wrote: post #2

How does IBM commercialize this? Do they license this out to fabs?

> Do they license this out to fabs? Broadly speaking yes, this is the business model. IBM has been at this for many years with technology transfers, licensing agreements, support and other arrangements. Rapidus, Samsung, GlobalFoundries, ST, SMIC, AMD, etc. have all used IBM R&D work at various times for various nodes and products. The cutting edge of semiconductors is a writhing mass of copulating tapeworms, and IBM…

Ah, thanks for that explanation. I was wondering how IBM could fund cutting edge research in semiconductors when they haven't been a semiconductor manufacturer for many years.

Re: IBM debuts sub-1 nanometer chip technology

#155

Post by shash »

pseudosavant wrote: post #20
buran77 wrote: post #10

> logic technology can extend for the first time below the 1 nm node, advancing the era of angstrom-level scaling, where dimensions approach the size of individual atoms. While transistor nodes now refer to a generation of manufacturing technology versus an exact physical dimension, IBM’s 0.7 nm technology—also referred to as 7 angstroms—demonstrates how continued scaling remains possible. Continuing the well establi…

My read on it was that they are trying to imply a transistor density (in a 2D plane sense) that is comparable to a 1nm process? But they achieve that through stacking (3D, not 2D) since the features aren't actually anywhere near 1nm?

Correction: it’s not stacking. They do things like FinFET (turning the gates in the third dimension) and gate-all-around which increases the density of transistors per unit area. But they don’t have layers of transistors. At least in the logic and analog processes.

Re: IBM debuts sub-1 nanometer chip technology

#156

Post by shash »

api wrote: post #63
buran77 wrote: post #10

> logic technology can extend for the first time below the 1 nm node, advancing the era of angstrom-level scaling, where dimensions approach the size of individual atoms. While transistor nodes now refer to a generation of manufacturing technology versus an exact physical dimension, IBM’s 0.7 nm technology—also referred to as 7 angstroms—demonstrates how continued scaling remains possible. Continuing the well establi…

Better metrics are transistors/mm^2, performance/watt, and raw performance, since at this point "nm" is fluff and easily game-able. Different companies measure it differently too. This was a while ago, but I remember reading that Intel 10nm was more or less close to TSMC 7nm. I'm sure this is still true to varying degrees.

Comparing nodes across foundries is a kind of a coin toss. At least, from the name. You actually need to go into the specifics of the pdk and process to understand what features there are. Can’t rely on the name for anything.

Re: IBM debuts sub-1 nanometer chip technology

#157

Post by orbifold »

smokefoot wrote: post #92
Barrin92 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IBM has been the company with the most patent registrations in the US for I think 29 of the last 30 years. They're one of the largest industrial research organizations in the world. They're doing more hard science research than almost anyone else.

Which is so weird, right? Like what is IBM now and how does a research lab make sense with the rest of their business? The money-making parts of IBM are: legacy software and hardware (declining), consulting (low margin, low leverage), enterprise software (mostly redhat, not really growing). It's hard to explain how IBM research is accretive to any of that.

The hardware division has 80%+ margin and still makes the systems that process 75% of all financial transactions. Their processors for those systems are on par or better than any other, I don’t think that is a business at all. This cash cow is not going away any time soon and gives them the profits to make bets on the future of computing.

Re: IBM debuts sub-1 nanometer chip technology

#158

Post by trynumber9 »

d3m0t3p wrote: post #136
lizknope wrote: post #132

Remember that IBM paid Global Foundries $1.5 billion to take their fabs and design services group. GF did not pay IBM. IBM paid GF to take the fabs away. https://www.reuters.com/article/technology/ibm-to-pay-global...

It was 15 years ago. Whole management got replaced, they are quite ambitious. Let's see if how this works out now.

The plan doesn't involve running fabs again. Too expensive. IBM licenses their manufacturing technology (so far to Rapidus in Japan).

Re: IBM debuts sub-1 nanometer chip technology

#160

Post by HerbManic »

vitally3643 wrote: post #52
throw0101d wrote: post #45

One of the images has "15 rows of Si atoms". Is there a limit to how small things can go? A single atom? Is there a physical/molecular limit to Moore's Law?

Yes, and we're already there. We've been there for quite a while, in fact. Once you make the gate of a transistor small/thin enough, quantum effects take over. Electrons will randomly teleport into and through the gate causing the transistor to conduct when it shouldn't. I don't have numbers to hand, but it's on the order of a few atoms wide. There's really nothing that can be done about it either, as far as we know.…

This is why I suspect we will be neat the upper limits of this around the late 2030's. We are just running too close to the fundamental limits. And so far there isn't anything really radical even on the horizon as a solution for this.
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