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Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

reuters.com

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Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#791

Post by roblabla »

w0m wrote: post #785
anon373839 wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These complaints of distillation are inflating the problem to make it sound worse than it is Unfortunately, the Reuters piece itself is complicit in this dramatization. The lede paragraph parrots Anthropic's talking point that distillation is an "attack", without using quotes that would alert the reader that this framing is a corporate talking point. Distillation is NOT an attack.

> Distillation is NOT an attack. From the article - > 28.8 million exchanges with Claude through almost 25,000 fraudulent accounts wouldn't that be considered an attack? Not sure what I'm missing here.

An attack against what? The sanctity of "their IP" that is itself the result of a massive copyright violation campaign?

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#792

Post by moistoreos »

TZubiri wrote: post #781
onetrickwolf wrote: post #760

“Distillation attack” are we joking here. If anything these models should be compelled to be public since they have been trained off public data. What an absurd overreach to call this an attack. It’s clear they are scapegoating national security and China at this point to build an anti-competitive moat. I generally really like Anthropic’s work and models but stuff like this scares me for the future. We are positionin…

Two wrongs don't make a right

Pretty sure the second rectified the first.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#793

Post by justapassenger »

TZubiri wrote: post #781
onetrickwolf wrote: post #760

“Distillation attack” are we joking here. If anything these models should be compelled to be public since they have been trained off public data. What an absurd overreach to call this an attack. It’s clear they are scapegoating national security and China at this point to build an anti-competitive moat. I generally really like Anthropic’s work and models but stuff like this scares me for the future. We are positionin…

Two wrongs don't make a right

Closest analogy to distillation is api reimplementation, without which current software industry wouldn’t exist.

There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with distillation.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#794

Post by w0m »

stingraycharles wrote: post #788
w0m wrote: post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Distillation is NOT an attack. From the article - > 28.8 million exchanges with Claude through almost 25,000 fraudulent accounts wouldn't that be considered an attack? Not sure what I'm missing here.

Let’s not forget that by the same logic, Anthropic et al are “attacking” copyright holders all around the world by scraping their data unauthorized for training. Pot calling kettle black.

i mean, i got 5 replies in a minute of asking, and none deny it's an "attack", they simply say "good". HN should be better discourse.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#795

Post by zobzu »

onetrickwolf wrote: post #760

“Distillation attack” are we joking here. If anything these models should be compelled to be public since they have been trained off public data. What an absurd overreach to call this an attack. It’s clear they are scapegoating national security and China at this point to build an anti-competitive moat. I generally really like Anthropic’s work and models but stuff like this scares me for the future. We are positionin…

its mainly just a lot cheaper. copying is always cheaper anyway, very little r&d - ai or no ai.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#796

Post by kouteiheika »

lars512 wrote: post #764

This kind of systematic distillation by a competitor can allow them to fast-follow you and pick up capabilities. If you've invested in expensive capabilities training, of course you don't want this, so it's in Anthropic's economic interest to hinder it however they can, and that's enough to explain their behaviour here. Anthropic seems to genuinely care about safety though, which for the rest of us means not having m…

> So although it's nice to have capable open models, it will increasingly bad for us all if open models keep fast-following closed model capabilities as they have been

Cat's out of the bag. The only way to make them safe is to make sure everyone has access to them. This might be an iffy analogy, but if Dario uses it all the time then so can I: they're kinda like nuclear weapons. If only one country has access to nukes then you're in trouble. If everyone has access to them, then it's mutually assured destruction to use them.

Sure, it could be increasingly bad if open models keep increasing in capability. But it will be much, much worse if only the rich and the powerful have access to this technology, and us -- the have-nots -- will have to contend with whatever scraps we'll be allowed to eat off the table of whichever billionaire is in control. We've already seen a prelude of this with Mythos being restricted and Fable being suddenly yanked. Is this the world you want to live in? Where only Dario and his friends have access?

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#797

Post by mcast »

xdennis wrote: post #301
protimewaster wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AI companies seem to take the viewpoint that everything on the internet is free, except their stuff. It's okay to hammer some random website with AI crawlers, ignoring robots.txt, and causing bandwidth costs to skyrocket. But if you cost an AI provider money with your data acquisition practices, well, that's just clearly unacceptable.

That's one aspect, which is a bit of a gray zone. But Anthropic trained on pirated books. That is explicitly illegal.

That ship has sailed, I would wager all the AI labs are ingesting anything human generated, whether that means Hollywood movies, Taylor Swift’s discography, YouTube videos or private GitHub source repos.

The reward for having a competitive edge is exponentially higher than the risk of a lawsuit. Politicians are still old bureaucrats who don’t understand technology.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#798

Post by zobzu »

roblabla wrote: post #791
w0m wrote: post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Distillation is NOT an attack. From the article - > 28.8 million exchanges with Claude through almost 25,000 fraudulent accounts wouldn't that be considered an attack? Not sure what I'm missing here.

An attack against what? The sanctity of "their IP" that is itself the result of a massive copyright violation campaign?

even if you disregard training costs, pure inference costs are a problem same reason other api have rate limit. this is an attack to bypass the rate limit.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#799

Post by redlewel »

I see this as valid use, they are paying for the tokens to get this reasoning aren't they?

Obviously they didn't ask for permission when scraping all of libgen, reddit, all blog sites for FREE. When China pays for its use and does it I'm supposed to see it as some sort of problem?

Furthermore Chinese models getting better means we Americans might have the chance to use top tier AI without strict KYC built around it. Go Alibaba I say

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#800

Post by zobzu »

mrngld wrote: post #711
echelon wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anthropic raped everyone without asking and stole their labor to build their career-commoditizing tech. Distillation is Robin Hooding it back so that one trillion dollar company doesn't reap all the benefits of their automation of the workforce. Distillation is Prometheus bringing fire from the gods to give to ordinary humans. Something we all own anyway, but that was kept from us. Distillation is freedom. Everyone s…

Eaaaaasy now, the Chinese labs aren't freedom fighters on behalf the common man. They're not non-profits, they're not neutral transnational organizations only dedicated to open source efforts. They're Chinese companies offering open source models now as loss leaders to keep themselves in the game because they know virtually nobody, especially in the corporate world, would contract with them and give them access to th…

you dont get it - usa is the goliath in all scenarios online. these are us based companies. most of the world would like to see them and the us fail.
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