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Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

reuters.com

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Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#311

Post by Lio »

tristanj wrote: post #25

Here's what is happening: Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices. They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs. They are subsidizing model access in exchange for user logs and reasoning traces, which they then sell as training data, allowing the…

I’m surprised that instead of cutting them off Anthropic doesn’t just switch them to a lower quality, cheaper to models.

That would seem more effective than simply shutting down the accounts.

Keep them paying for junk.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#312

Post by exabrial »

I like Anthropic's models, use them regularly. However, it weighs on my mind that there is quite the irony of an LLM company complaining about someone stealing their stuff or using it in a way they don't like. The training data for these models is a massive gray area that they are hoping people seem to just forget about and move on.

That being all said, Anthropic seems to be a good company, I'd work for them, but they probably need to help themselves out of the spotlight. A little too much press coverage as of late.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#314

Post by temporaryacc2 »

tristanj wrote: post #25

Here's what is happening: Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices. They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs. They are subsidizing model access in exchange for user logs and reasoning traces, which they then sell as training data, allowing the…

Thank you for your very informative comment!

(It's a shame almost all replies are just the same contrived pessisism found on every Anthropic thread on HN).

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#315

Post by furyofantares »

ffsm8 wrote: post #186
tristanj wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DeepSeek permanently cut its V4-pro API prices by 75% because they were too expensive. Without the price cut, Deepseek V4-pro tokens would have cost more than resold Opus 4.8 tokens. Opus 4.8 is a more capable model, so almost nobody was going to pay for V4-pro at the original price.

Urm, no? I man they did cut prices by 75% that part is true - but they reduced a starting price that was below sonnet. Also it's a open weight model, doing that is impossible long term because the real price will be set by the other model providers, who priced it around 60% of sonnet inference cost. Had to look that up though, so that's today's pricing.

Is there a contradiction here? If resold Opus tokens are sold at a 93% discount, you can be a lot cheaper than Sonnet while also a lot more expensive than resold Opus tokens.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#316

Post by Groxx »

Perhaps this is related to the "Mythos is too dangerous and cannot be exported" movements? It'd be a fairly effective way to justify extreme actions in combating it.

One could even wonder if they requested it, as a tactic to support their eventual IPO valuation.

Which is part of the problem of such an obviously-corrupt government: conspiracy theories are somewhat reasonable, as they keep getting validated.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#317

Post by timschmidt »

bendews wrote: post #308
8note wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i still want those data sets to become public domain. open weights still isnt good enough

That's the conundrum isn't it? Anyone that posts their datasets would be immediately sued/blocked/boycotted to oblivion due to the obvious and blatant data theft, not to mention IP and copyright issues.

Nvidia's even being sued for providing scripts which automate the downloading of said data from non-Nvidia sources. We certainly don't need copyrights that last nearly a century after the author's death (they literally cannot help the author), so here's hoping that some of the disputes over all this money changing hands can reign in some of the existing copyright sprawl. A stronger public domain would provide more useful training data for everyone, including open source models, and make criminals out of fewer AI researchers.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#318

Post by AuthAuth »

phs318u wrote: post #275
andsoitis wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the idea that the Chinese are better at selling US models than the Americans is hilarious This is not the right deduction. China blocks foreign AI from operating there.

> China blocks foreign AI from operating there. Given the current US government's tightening of export control restrictions and the introduction of a bipartisan bill to block use of Chinese AI in federal agencies, I'd say the two countries' positions are not far apart. https://apnews.com/article/ai-china-united-states-competitio...

Yes neither are free markets

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#319

Post by gmerc »

Evergreen, really, Anthropic's desperate screaming for government protection, aka pulling up the ladder after them. Nothing short of disconnecting global markets will work because the incentives are just too damn delicious

https://georgzoeller.com/blog/posts/us-ai-labs-love-the-ai-r...

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#320

Post by gmerc »

petterroea wrote: post #306
gaiagraphia wrote: post #115

This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about. I also learnt that Anthropic should get better at what they do if they want to compete. If not, somebody else will win. Or does this not apply to huge US corporations any more?

China aren't offering a cheaper solution. They are subsidizing an existing one (which is already subsidized) in order to gain foothold. The difference is that in the US subsidies come from VC, while OP implies subsidies come from the AI labs that buy the training data (which may as well also be VC backed, so just one extra hop). This isn't "the market working as intended", this is an exhaustion fight to the bottom wh…

All I can say is lol. DeepSeek showing 3 order of magnitude efficiency gains over the performative capital furnace that was training and inference absolutely moved the bar here.
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