Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 1001 posts

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#211

Post by ssivark »

tristanj wrote: post #84
xgstation wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one reason why Deepseek & GLM are priced so cheaply, they are competing with impossibly low token prices in China. They have to keep prices low, in order for people to use them. This one does not make sense to me at all. Deepseek and GLM are openweights, even US inference provider are selling them at much cheaper price. The price is cheap because the model is more efficient.

DeepSeek permanently cut its V4-pro API prices by 75% because they were too expensive. Without the price cut, Deepseek V4-pro tokens would have cost more than resold Opus 4.8 tokens. Opus 4.8 is a more capable model, so almost nobody was going to pay for V4-pro at the original price.

> Without the price cut, Deepseek V4-pro tokens would have cost more than resold Opus 4.8 tokens.

You mean it's functionally as if American tokens are being price dumped in China and Chinese model providers are being forced to compete with that and innovate? So many delicious layers of irony, lol :-P

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#212

Post by spoaceman7777 »

irlib wrote: post #174
tristanj wrote: post #25

Here's what is happening: Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices. They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs. They are subsidizing model access in exchange for user logs and reasoning traces, which they then sell as training data, allowing the…

Where are you getting cheap GLM5.2? It is about 1/3 the price of Opus, which is not what I would call cheap.

Depending on the provider, GLM-5.2 is between 4.5-5x cheaper than Opus. You can compare prices/speed/etc. for basically all relevant models on aa https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/glm-5-2/providers

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#213

Post by dannyw »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #11

There's two basic kinds of distillation: 1) the massive [and dumb] method where you ask a question and use the answer as reinforcement (Black Box), and 2) more targeted distillation where you use one model to directly inform/train/guide another model (RLAIF). The latter is basically fine-tuning the model with direction from another model. Thousands of businesses do this every day to fine-tune. This is almost certainl…

If you’re doing evals, you’re basically doing RLAIF without training a model; just looking at the results.

Fundamentally it is very difficult to stop this while still making your AI models useful.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#214

Post by altmanaltman »

bilbo0s wrote: post #162
randomboy3423 wrote: post #21

A partly insider on this. I think Anthropic is just marketing / bluffing, because they don't even have the data. They do distill the models, but they don't go to Anthropic, they just use platforms like aws bedrock, there are too many restrictions on Anthropic's own platform.

> they just use platforms like aws bedrock, there are too many restrictions on Anthropic's own platform This is actually the only way that what Anthropic is alleging would make any kind of sense. And, as a matter of fact, is exactly what every enterprise does to train models. This kerfuffle should be interesting to watch. But, as always, everyone (in the US) should fully download all the Chinese models while you can.…

> And even with the Chinese tech, as Big Tech spreads their AI out into more and more niche areas, we'll likely still not be able to build startups that can compete with them.

You mean like Anthropic will eventually run Walmart? Or Salesforce? or Adobe? Or do you think midjourney will replace all medical spas? OpenAI will run the next Tesla? How can they focus on all this without raising trillions more? Why wont the gov force them to stop if they monopolize all niches even if they could?

Building a frontier AI lab and pushing models forward is already a massive undertaking but we are assuming they will also create massively successful startups which nobody can compete with?

idk sounds like the dream of people like Dario but not much sense does it make in the face of economic reality.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#215

Post by andsoitis »

roenxi wrote: post #184
gaiagraphia wrote: post #115

This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about. I also learnt that Anthropic should get better at what they do if they want to compete. If not, somebody else will win. Or does this not apply to huge US corporations any more?

I get the vague impression that this was written in a sarcastic way, but it has a straightforwardly true literal read because yes, this is what the free market is about and Anthropic will have to compete with the Chinese if they want a big share of the market. Chinese models are cheap and good; even without reselling Anthropic's services they're competitive. Which reading did you intend? And, gotta say, the idea that…

> the idea that the Chinese are better at selling US models than the Americans is hilarious

This is not the right deduction.

China blocks foreign AI from operating there.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#216

Post by [deleted] »

naturalmovement wrote: post #173
gaiagraphia wrote: post #115

This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about. I also learnt that Anthropic should get better at what they do if they want to compete. If not, somebody else will win. Or does this not apply to huge US corporations any more?

Do you also think Chinese selling counterfeit US postage stamps on eBay for 50% retail price (which is a major problem CBP and USPIS are fighting presently) is the free market at work? This post is so delusional and dripping with condescension I've read it three times and I still can't figure out if you're trolling or not.

[deleted]

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#218

Post by potsandpans »

thesmtsolver2 wrote: post #175
gaiagraphia wrote: post #115

This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about. I also learnt that Anthropic should get better at what they do if they want to compete. If not, somebody else will win. Or does this not apply to huge US corporations any more?

> what economics told me the free market was all about. Don't complain when US starts to play by the same rules China has been using for decades.

A credit system that determine your upward mobility?

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#220

Post by abofh »

tristanj wrote: post #25

Here's what is happening: Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices. They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs. They are subsidizing model access in exchange for user logs and reasoning traces, which they then sell as training data, allowing the…

Somebody figured out how to make the trial profitable!

I don't really feel bad about anyone here, they were subsidizing to get people hooked, someone turned the subsidies into profit when they got selective pricing mode enabled, it was always going to be arbitrage.

But the winner is the guy in the middle in a jurisdiction that will likely be judgement proof, because everything they capture, both input and out, and if available, thinking tokens -- are gonna be for sale as soon as you cut off their other revenue.

Zero knowledge was a commitment Anthropic took seriously, until it got inconvenient.

So, people reselling their leftover plan crumbs? Probably a bad idea for a lot of reasons, but it's civil, and I wish Anthropics lawyers actually closing Streisand's LLM

Post reply on HN