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45°C cooling design cuts data center water use to near zero

blogs.nvidia.com

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Re: 45°C cooling design cuts data center water use to near zero

#31

Post by tucnak »

ramon156 wrote: post #18
amluto wrote: post #12

This opens up an interesting synergy: district heating. 45C is low but not unworkable for a district heating loop, and a data center might be able to make a nice pitch to a community if the data center offers to provide heat to a district heating system for free. This brings the value to the local community of a nearby datacenter up from near zero to potentially a few million dollars per year. Summer is still an issu…

Do you live near a datacenter? Property value goes down, constant humming.. the way we heat up the earth right now, i don't think you have to worry about heating

> the way we heat up the earth right now, i don't think you have to worry about heating

So what, winters would be no more? Snow will disappear, no more ice-men and christmas trees, and subzero conditions in general, too?

Re: 45°C cooling design cuts data center water use to near zero

#32

Post by asdff »

dgellow wrote: post #26
mchusma wrote: post #22

This is also the type of thing that makes space based data centers more viable. I was previously more skeptical on the concept but have come around. I do think ground based centers will have better economics when they can be built though, and this addresses noise and water complaints which are the big 2 regional complaints. It seems like lots of bottlenecks are getting solved quickly, except for maybe memory.

How does that change the calculus for space datacenters? There is still no reasons or benefits to having them in space. You still have to rely solely on radiative cooling. That doesn’t solve any of the maintenance problems. Space datacenters is a really dumb and unrealistic idea Musk is talking about to hype his companies, it’s not meant to actually be done. Anything in space is more expensive and way harder to do, f…

Starlink is already a space based datacenter. No one is up there maintaining it.

Re: 45°C cooling design cuts data center water use to near zero

#33

Post by badpun »

amluto wrote: post #12

This opens up an interesting synergy: district heating. 45C is low but not unworkable for a district heating loop, and a data center might be able to make a nice pitch to a community if the data center offers to provide heat to a district heating system for free. This brings the value to the local community of a nearby datacenter up from near zero to potentially a few million dollars per year. Summer is still an issu…

European cities are doing it already.

Re: 45°C cooling design cuts data center water use to near zero

#34

Post by wolvoleo »

amluto wrote: post #29
ramon156 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you live near a datacenter? Property value goes down, constant humming.. the way we heat up the earth right now, i don't think you have to worry about heating

I’ve been to datacenters, but not the huuuge ones people seem to talk about in the context of AI. They are noisy inside (due to air cooling, which is largely avoided by the tech in the OP), but they’re entirely unremarkable outside compared to any other commercial or industrial building. Computers are not inherently loud, nor is power conversion. Power plants are all over, even in populated areas. They’re not so bad…

It depends a lot on things like geology and some people are a lot more sensitive. It is really an issue.

I don't have any datacenters near me but I can hear some heavy hums from the washing machine 3 floors up when it put my head on my pillow, for some reason it just propagates through the building physically. When I walk around I don't hear it. Datacenter noise can be the same.

IMO they should be put away from habitation, there's no reason for them to be near there anyway

Re: 45°C cooling design cuts data center water use to near zero

#35

Post by wolvoleo »

asdff wrote: post #32
dgellow wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that change the calculus for space datacenters? There is still no reasons or benefits to having them in space. You still have to rely solely on radiative cooling. That doesn’t solve any of the maintenance problems. Space datacenters is a really dumb and unrealistic idea Musk is talking about to hype his companies, it’s not meant to actually be done. Anything in space is more expensive and way harder to do, f…

Starlink is already a space based datacenter. No one is up there maintaining it.

It's not, it's more like a space based network, the processing and storage is minimal.

Re: 45°C cooling design cuts data center water use to near zero

#36

Post by wolvoleo »

dgellow wrote: post #26
mchusma wrote: post #22

This is also the type of thing that makes space based data centers more viable. I was previously more skeptical on the concept but have come around. I do think ground based centers will have better economics when they can be built though, and this addresses noise and water complaints which are the big 2 regional complaints. It seems like lots of bottlenecks are getting solved quickly, except for maybe memory.

How does that change the calculus for space datacenters? There is still no reasons or benefits to having them in space. You still have to rely solely on radiative cooling. That doesn’t solve any of the maintenance problems. Space datacenters is a really dumb and unrealistic idea Musk is talking about to hype his companies, it’s not meant to actually be done. Anything in space is more expensive and way harder to do, f…

I honestly think musk wants them there because they are hard to reach.

I do really think that if large numbers of jobs are indeed going to be displaced by AI, movements will pop up of people attacking datacenters (and honestly I wouldn't blame them even though it won't really accomplish anything). Having them in space keeps them out of reach of anyone but state actors.

Re: 45°C cooling design cuts data center water use to near zero

#37

Post by abc42 »

ramon156 wrote: post #18
amluto wrote: post #12

This opens up an interesting synergy: district heating. 45C is low but not unworkable for a district heating loop, and a data center might be able to make a nice pitch to a community if the data center offers to provide heat to a district heating system for free. This brings the value to the local community of a nearby datacenter up from near zero to potentially a few million dollars per year. Summer is still an issu…

Do you live near a datacenter? Property value goes down, constant humming.. the way we heat up the earth right now, i don't think you have to worry about heating

Coldest month average temperature where I live is around -7C, with peaks of -35C. Climate change is not going to increase that average, more like decrease. Typically, of course, electricity price is the highest during that month too.

I think we are going to need heating.

Re: 45°C cooling design cuts data center water use to near zero

#38

Post by asdff »

wolvoleo wrote: post #35
asdff wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starlink is already a space based datacenter. No one is up there maintaining it.

It's not, it's more like a space based network, the processing and storage is minimal.

By definition it is compute nodes in space. That is what a router is, a computer. Just a matter of scale. They could be improved to more compute and more storage per node. The framework is already there: treat these as disposable vs having to think about supporting them through maintenance.

Re: 45°C cooling design cuts data center water use to near zero

#39

Post by thewebguyd »

wolvoleo wrote: post #34
amluto wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been to datacenters, but not the huuuge ones people seem to talk about in the context of AI. They are noisy inside (due to air cooling, which is largely avoided by the tech in the OP), but they’re entirely unremarkable outside compared to any other commercial or industrial building. Computers are not inherently loud, nor is power conversion. Power plants are all over, even in populated areas. They’re not so bad…

It depends a lot on things like geology and some people are a lot more sensitive. It is really an issue. I don't have any datacenters near me but I can hear some heavy hums from the washing machine 3 floors up when it put my head on my pillow, for some reason it just propagates through the building physically. When I walk around I don't hear it. Datacenter noise can be the same. IMO they should be put away from habit…

> IMO they should be put away from habitation, there's no reason for them to be near there anyway

I agree, but that's a hard problem (in the US anyway). Unless you're plopping data centers in the middle of national parks, or in the middle of the desert where water is going to be a problem, you are nearly always going to be within some small mile radius of civilization. Plus the cost of trenching new fiber out in the middle of nowhere.

The same reasons humans want to concentrate in a particular area (access to jobs, infrastructure) are the same things that data centers need.

Once water-less cooling tech like this improves then yeah, just plopping them in the middle of the unpopulated desert becomes viable (assuming you can get the fiber out there and latency is tolerable), so long as they generate their own power.

Re: 45°C cooling design cuts data center water use to near zero

#40

Post by dgellow »

asdff wrote: post #38
wolvoleo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not, it's more like a space based network, the processing and storage is minimal.

By definition it is compute nodes in space. That is what a router is, a computer. Just a matter of scale. They could be improved to more compute and more storage per node. The framework is already there: treat these as disposable vs having to think about supporting them through maintenance.

A datacenter is about data. Your network of space router is in no way something a reasonable person would consider a datacenter... Even less an inference datacenter.
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