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Perl 5.17.6 is now available

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Re: Perl 5.17.6 is now available

#31

Post by new299 »

pyre wrote: post #30
new299 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument might be that it's easy (easier than many languages) to slip into writing bad Perl, which promotes brain rot, it also sounds like it's a discussion he's had many times before... and perhaps isn't too interested in having again.

> it's easy (easier than many languages) to slip into > writing bad Perl Bad programmers will write bad code no matter the language. I don't like this idea that the language can somehow force people to write better code, or that it should.

> I don't like this idea that the language can somehow force people to write better code

Why is this a bad idea? Do you also object to Perl Critic? Or say having a policy of using Perl Critic?

Re: Perl 5.17.6 is now available

#32

Post by berntb »

pyre wrote: post #30
new299 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument might be that it's easy (easier than many languages) to slip into writing bad Perl, which promotes brain rot, it also sounds like it's a discussion he's had many times before... and perhaps isn't too interested in having again.

> it's easy (easier than many languages) to slip into > writing bad Perl Bad programmers will write bad code no matter the language. I don't like this idea that the language can somehow force people to write better code, or that it should.

You're arguing with a Karma 30 account.

It took some time before the trolls woke up in this thread.

(I'd love to get access to the HN logs and check IPs, to see if the trolls where sloppy with using alternative access and can be identified.)

Re: Perl 5.17.6 is now available

#33

Post by pyre »

new299 wrote: post #31
pyre wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's easy (easier than many languages) to slip into > writing bad Perl Bad programmers will write bad code no matter the language. I don't like this idea that the language can somehow force people to write better code, or that it should.

> I don't like this idea that the language can somehow force people to write better code Why is this a bad idea? Do you also object to Perl Critic? Or say having a policy of using Perl Critic?

Usage of Perl Critic and claiming that Perl 'rots your brain' are miles apart.

Also, I don't see anyone claiming that Python will 'rot your brain' because PEP-8 isn't enforced by the language.

Re: Perl 5.17.6 is now available

#34

Post by jnazario »

pyre wrote: post #23
jnazario wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'll wade in. note that i'm bigoted against perl, i'll say so clearly up front. perl is better than shell scripting at automation, this much is true. perl has a strong use case there. had, i'll argue. perl's idioms and structure promotes wonky, hard to read and hard to maintain code. it's true. get even the most die hard perl fan a beer or two and they'll wind up admitting it, sheepishly and quietly. but yeah, perl t…

> "don't use perl, it promotes brain rot" > and no, i wont revisit my thinking. "I don't think this is the tool for the job, THEREFORE IT ROTS YOUR BRAIN! If you try to talk to me about that, I will chant, "I'M NOT LISTENING" over and over with my hands on my ears." Really?

"Really?" yes.

like another commenter said it's a discussion i've had before and haven't heard compelling arguments in favor of perl, so no i'm not interested in revisiting it.

that said it IS context dependent. i wont fire you for writing perl one-offs to maintain some systems or process some files. but i would argue against you for wanting to ship perl for the reasons i stated, with my main thesis being that your decision would jeopardize the project's future (assuming it had some future). i've heard the arguments before, like "you can write clean and maintainable perl" (which has analogues with "high performance java" and "long-term maintainable PHP"). the counterpoint is "sure, one can. but people rarely do. other tools promote those features more readily. pick one of them."

Re: Perl 5.17.6 is now available

#35

Post by jerf »

ojosilva wrote: post #5

Here's the delta with the changes: https://metacpan.org/module/RJBS/perl-5.17.6/pod/perldelta.p...

5.17.6: "The seed used by Perl's hash function is now random. This means that the order which keys/values will be returned from functions like keys(), values(), and each() will differ from run to run."

Wait, what?

5.8.1: "Mainly due to security reasons, the "random ordering" of hashes has been made even more random. Previously while the order of hash elements from keys(), values(), and each() was essentially random, it was still repeatable. Now, however, the order varies between different runs of Perl." - http://search.cpan.org/~jhi/perl-5.8.1/pod/perldelta.pod#Has... , Sept 25 2003

When did that get undone?

Edit: Admittedly, I just tried to verify that this actually happened in 5.8.1 and none of 5.8.8, 5.10.0, or 5.14.2 appear to be actually randomizing key order, at least according to the keys function.

Re: Perl 5.17.6 is now available

#36

Post by jonathansizz »

peteretep wrote: post #17
new299 wrote: post #15

I'd be genuinely interested in reasons why I should learn Perl? I've been hacking away at some Perl interfaces lately but finding it difficult. It seems like a big language (I'm reading Perl Programming, which is certainly a big book). So rather than just hacking away, is there a good reason I should learn the language properly and push through "Perl Programming" or say learning Ruby, Python or golang really well. Wi…

I watched a keynote recently where Guido - the Python guy - made the point that Ruby, Python, and Perl are all essentially the same language. I like Perl because it's: * Stable, reliable, very very mature * Has a testing culture really second to none, excellent testing tools, and a unifying testing mechanism (TAP) * CPAN really is awesome * Almost any tool you enjoy from the other languages, Perl has an equivalent

Installing a new version of Perl doesn't break your old code! This is not true for Ruby (I'm not sure about Python as I no longer use it much), which is a huge argument in favour of using Perl over Ruby.

Having said that, it's certainly possible to use all of these languages, and once you are good at one, it should take little extra effort to learn the others. All of them have their strong points and you'll probably regularly see code in each of them, so just learn them all.

Re: Perl 5.17.6 is now available

#37

Post by rcthompson »

new299 wrote: post #15

I'd be genuinely interested in reasons why I should learn Perl? I've been hacking away at some Perl interfaces lately but finding it difficult. It seems like a big language (I'm reading Perl Programming, which is certainly a big book). So rather than just hacking away, is there a good reason I should learn the language properly and push through "Perl Programming" or say learning Ruby, Python or golang really well. Wi…

Yes, Perl is a big language. But you don't have to learn anywhere near the whole language to be productive in it.

Re: Perl 5.17.6 is now available

#38

Post by broquaint »

jerf wrote: post #35
ojosilva wrote: post #5

Here's the delta with the changes: https://metacpan.org/module/RJBS/perl-5.17.6/pod/perldelta.p...

5.17.6: "The seed used by Perl's hash function is now random. This means that the order which keys/values will be returned from functions like keys(), values(), and each() will differ from run to run." Wait, what? 5.8.1: "Mainly due to security reasons, the "random ordering" of hashes has been made even more random. Previously while the order of hash elements from keys(), values(), and each() was essentially random,…

Relevant discussion on perl5-porters:

http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2012/10/ms...

Re: Perl 5.17.6 is now available

#39

Post by cygx »

jnazario wrote: post #18
new299 wrote: post #15

I'd be genuinely interested in reasons why I should learn Perl? I've been hacking away at some Perl interfaces lately but finding it difficult. It seems like a big language (I'm reading Perl Programming, which is certainly a big book). So rather than just hacking away, is there a good reason I should learn the language properly and push through "Perl Programming" or say learning Ruby, Python or golang really well. Wi…

i'll wade in. note that i'm bigoted against perl, i'll say so clearly up front. perl is better than shell scripting at automation, this much is true. perl has a strong use case there. had, i'll argue. perl's idioms and structure promotes wonky, hard to read and hard to maintain code. it's true. get even the most die hard perl fan a beer or two and they'll wind up admitting it, sheepishly and quietly. but yeah, perl t…

Using Perl will not rot your brain any more than any other programming language - balance is key: Look at other languages and don't become a one-trick pony.

If you look at the popular scripting languages (Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby, Javascript), Perl is the only one that gets freaking variable declaration right, so I'd be pretty careful when casting stones.

Re: Perl 5.17.6 is now available

#40

Post by mdellabitta »

peteretep wrote: post #6

Good to see so much active work on Unicode support. Really feels like Perl is coming in to its own as the language to use with Unicode text...

Is that really laudable in this day and age?

I mean Java had Unicode support right out the door in 1995. Not that it's a wonderful text processing language, but you'd think 17 years is plenty of time to catch up...

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