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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#511

Post by asyx »

ecshafer wrote: post #294
Lariscus wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The authors inability to understand this really makes wonder how much of the rest of their story is essentially self-inflicted.

The author can surely understand it. And this system is what is keeping Germany and many European countries from propelling their economies forward by reducing market dynamism. Its not a coincidence that China, US and many other countries, which have more dynamic markets and large GDP growth let you set up a company in a day.

No he doesn't. You can register a Kleingewerbe at the Gewerbeamt online ([1] for NRW) and start right away. You can create an UG (literally supposed to fill the gap between a GmbH and a Kleingewerbe) within 2 weeks depending on the notary. And those 2 weeks come from the fact that the notary has better stuff to do than a UG registration and therefore probably doesn't make time specifically for you.

If you want to start a business and you don't need to pay for an office or whatever (because you can actually use those 25k for something), you can literally start over night. If you need a proper company that limits your liability, you can literally start in 2 weeks.

[1] https://service.wirtschaft.nrw/unternehmensgruendung/gewerbe...

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#512

Post by ahlCVA »

9dev wrote: post #435
WarmWash wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the major reasons US consumers shop with megacorp over small business is because of the no hassle returns.

Exactly my point. In Germany I can order from the smallest of webshops without even reading their return policy, because I am guaranteed favourable terms by law.

This isn't without downsides though: As somebody with a niche technical hobby, it is hard for me to order from many suppliers because they understandably don't want to deal with consumer protection laws and thus exclude B2C transactions outright ("Verkauf nur an Gewerbetreibende").

I would be fine with waiving my right to returns but this is not possible on purpose, so my only options are to shop somewhere else (often not possible) or found a company (not possible because it would be Liebhaberei - "Running a company without intent to make profits").

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#513

Post by jeromegv »

keiferski wrote: post #429
pwinnski wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word "most" is doing a lot here. Europe guarantees consumer rights by law, while the US relies on companies adopting the practices voluntarily. Most do, but larger companies more universally than smaller, and it's by no means universal.

It's the reality for the vast majority of larger companies. Quibbling with word choice is really not a good argument.

We are talking of entrepreneurship and new companies, what small business are required to do for returns/refunds in the US is definitely not ahead of Europe for consumer protection.

It's not word choice, you are just making the wrong argument.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#514

Post by semessier »

for all the people posting founding in Ireland or Estonia (or England!!) etc. The local bureaucracies will spend infinite resources on nailing anyone down on the place of business being != to where the registration is. That is coercing one way or another to incorporate with the full overhead locally after all and most importantly that taxes are not happening in Ireland but to feed the local administration.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#515

Post by WarmWash »

moooo99 wrote: post #444
WarmWash wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...but their machinery (or cars and motorcycles at least) are needlessly complex and unbelievably frustrating to work on. Really I think that they just landed on some really successful marketing.

> Really I think that they just landed on some really successful marketing. It depends. For some machinery the complexity is inherent, this makes German machines very good at what they do. But this approach does not tend to scale well, which is part of the reason the German economy tends to be fairly specialized with „hidden champion“ SMEs. Made in Germany has (had?) a very positive connotation to it, but for histori…

Japanese engineers seem to have figured out the "inherent complexity".

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#516

Post by TulliusCicero »

artemonster wrote: post #342
nish1500 wrote: post #104

I've run a tech business on three continents, and nothing comes close to the Kafkaesque labyrinth of the German world. Everything is unbelievably complicated and over-engineered, and every layer is immune to change. Every rule was rational when it was added, and now everyone has a financial stake in continued complexity. The German notary is the highest-paid notary in the world, and the highest-earning professional i…

and just read these awful comments defending this nonsense and shifting the blame. so much arrogance its nauseating

Germans will say they're not very patriotic, but really the way German patriotism manifests is a resistance to outside criticism paired with a stubborn insistence that things ought not change.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#517

Post by varispeed »

rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

This could have been resolved by listing how much capital company has set aside for liabilities. If someone sees company only has 1 EUR, then they can assess their own risk accordingly before engaging.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#518

Post by Chu4eeno »

Fokamul wrote: post #145

So question is, why are you starting company in Germany, this is EU, start in better country.

Because then the german tax man would presumably demand he pay more than he has available, in exit tax (as explained in the post).

To cite the modern thinkers in Corporate Avenger, «taxes are stealing and I get the feeling that were getting fucked in the ass».

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#519

Post by antonvs »

echoangle wrote: post #357
logifail wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 25,000 is there to make sure you can cover some liability I would suggest that this idea of a GmbH does not actually work the way you think it does. Maybe it once did, but not any more. For instance: Wirecard Technologies GmbH Wirecard Sales International Holding GmbH Wirecard Acquiring & Issuing GmbH Wirecard Acceptance Technologies GmbH Much of the regulatory structures in Europe work this way, they assume th…

Im pretty sure those wirecard companies all had the mandatory money in the account. They just did more damage than that.

Ok, so what is the point of the money?

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#520

Post by Saline9515 »

rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

The problem here is that 25k€ is too little for some types of businesses (say, a bridge architect), and way too much for others (say, selling spice mixes online).

I don't get the "seriousness" memes in Germany, which sound more about gatekeeping than anything else. Why not require 1M€? This is serious! More serious! Meanwhile, they have companies likes Wirecard that went under in a day after it discovered a "hole" of 2 billion (magic!).

Why not just allow people to create a Gmbh with 2k€, and then publicise the amount of share capital so clients can make their mind? It's how it's done in France for instance, allows some flexibility (I know, a swear word in Germany), and sounds less like a social punition (something Germans love).

The hack anyway is to create an Estonian e-company, with almost no maintenance/creation costs. Germans are the largest funder demographic for this reason.

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