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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#461

Post by fransje26 »

tga wrote: post #270
rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

You call €25k liability? I just decided I won't work with a company that can't cover €25M in liability. Should the state force you to block that in your bank account just in case you want to work with me?

It's because some understanding was lost somewhere between the article and OP.

The €25k are not a liability insurance or anything like that. It's a starting capital to make sure that the company can honor its bills. Liability is covered via separate insurances.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#462

Post by jt2190 »

rayiner wrote: post #339
Zak wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the impression the situations where that actually happens are at least arguably serious misconduct, and usually targeted at someone with significant assets. A construction company that pockets ten million dollars and doesn't build anything probably can't shield its owner this way, but a single-developer software consultancy that pockets ten thousand dollars and delivers buggy code can.

In theory it’s based on whether the owner of the company intended to run it under capitalized in an effort to shirk liability.

But the larger point still stands: Limited liability was granted “on the front end” without the entity needing to demonstrate a minimum amount of capital. You’re only pointing out that in the U.S. that it’s possible that “on the back end” the owners of the entity might become personally liable.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#463

Post by markvdb »

jeroenhd wrote: post #388
ecshafer wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author can surely understand it. And this system is what is keeping Germany and many European countries from propelling their economies forward by reducing market dynamism. Its not a coincidence that China, US and many other countries, which have more dynamic markets and large GDP growth let you set up a company in a day.

Registering a private limited liability company in the Netherlands costs around 400 euros. If you can file all of the taxes and other legally required paperwork yourself, you can be set up in a week or two. You will be a salaried employee of your own company, though, with a minimal salary you will need to rake in. The combination of "no personal risk whatsoever, minimal funds/risk coverage, maximal profit extraction"…

> If you can file all of the taxes and other legally required paperwork yourself, you can be set up in a week or two.

Is realistic in the Netherlands to try and fulfill all formal paperwork requirements?

In my native Belgian city, outsourcing that be from ~3k€ excluding VAT/year for the very simplest CIT liable structure. That's excluding 409.3€ corporate social security contribution and 148€ provincial tax. That makes for about 300€ ex. VAT before you can start to earn anything at all. Unless you can fulfill all accounting yourself.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#464

Post by blks »

_fat_santa wrote: post #276
WarmWash wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are jealous of the US system where you can create an LLC in one hour for $200, and by the next day be doing business with all your personal assets isolated.

The US system is built to support entrepreneurship while the EU system broadly is to support the consumer and employee. The US will never be able to match the EU's consumer and employee protections and the EU will never be able to match the US's ease of doing business, because to have one you have to fundamentally give in on the other. Depending on who you ask, one system is wildly better than the other, but at the e…

25k requirement doesn’t protect anyone, just prevents regular contractors from easily registering limited liability company.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#465

Post by Aachen »

phlo wrote: post #198

You have to savour the lack of self-awareness in this one. > Founder chooses the most complex legal structure that's readily-available... and is surprised that this complexity comes with laywer and notary fees. > Founder decides to incorporate a company with the name of a popular brand of kitchen rolls... and is surprised that it's too generic. > After "weeks of correspondence" (and, I suppose, extensive research), f…

For anyone else confused who didn't read the article at first: these aren't actually quotes from the article, afaict this is 4chan style bullet points (green text)

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#466

Post by markvdb »

davedx wrote: post #410
rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

Yeah I don't really understand the part about not being able to invoice either. IANAL but it's the other way around - you need a VAT number to invoice clients in Germany (and the EU), not outside of it. VAT is exempt for clients outside of the EEA. Also: I've always used a ZZP structure (one man company - Dutch version) for mine, not a BV (LLC), because there's a thing called Professional Liability Insurance. But may…

Not incorporating would be very fiscally suboptimal here (.be) for anything tech related. Your marginal tax+ social security contributions rate would be ~66% starting from 50k€ gross...

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#468

Post by notanormalnerd »

xondono wrote: post #201
VadimPR wrote: post #8

Before Europe gets lumped in as one country, founding a company in Netherlands and Sweden, speaking from personal experience, is a breeze. Although Sweden is a bit strange in the fact that banks have as much equal say as the government authority does in you starting a company, and if they don't want you as a customer, they can simply deny the right for your company to start!

Germany, France and Spain are some of the biggest offenders here. Some years ago a case became quite famous in Spain. Someone wanted to turn a winery into a eco-tourism boutique hotel with a winery tour and experience. Should be simple in theory, in practice they were waiting for authorization to open for more than 4 years. I’ve been involved with startups and small businesses for more than a decade, and I haven’t st…

> Someone wanted to turn a winery into a eco-tourism boutique hotel with a winery tour and experience.

Because a agricultural business and a hotel business are two different things, and Spain has, rightfully so, their thumb on the spread of tourism, because it affects local communities negatively.

Otherwise investors could just come in, buy a random agriculture business and then turn it into luxury hotels/lodging.

> I’ve been involved with startups and small businesses for more than a decade, and I haven’t still heard of any of them doing things 100% by the book, because it’s just impossible.

Because entrepreneurs are notoriously bad thinking further than their own interests. It always, "just" something they want to do.

Zoning rules and regulations have their purpose. Are some of those in some places idiotic? Yes. Do most of them still have their reason? Also yes.

Otherwise we can stop protesting datacenters and the trump family building a eco-luxury resort in a nature reserve.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#469

Post by zymhan »

nradov wrote: post #231
FLHerne wrote: post #51

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. > And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH The post itself explains exactly why the first complaint is a fallacy and the second one is tru…

If a company collapses while having more liabilities than assets then that's fine. No one is being forced to extend any credit to them.

It will make it harder for "worthy" companies to get loans and credit.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#470

Post by [deleted] »

tga wrote: post #270
rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

You call €25k liability? I just decided I won't work with a company that can't cover €25M in liability. Should the state force you to block that in your bank account just in case you want to work with me?

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