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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#421

Post by dgellow »

earcar wrote: post #109
robtro wrote: post #65

Germany is one of the worst countries when it comes to bureaucracy nothing is fast here if you go the legal path and stay within the law (which is mostly for small people big players have different ways) and as you see everything costs a lot so if you are founding a pure online business do yourself a favor and incorporate somewhere else and if you still live in Germany look into licensing or subcontracting yourself t…

I have yet to find the mythical efficiency everyone was talking about. Trains, Berlin Brandenburg Airport, this. It's rules and adherence to rules, more than efficiency, that I've found in my experience.

It’s from >50y ago, then became a meme detached from reality. And for some reasons people are still repeating it even if they know literally nothing about the country

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#424

Post by kuschku »

petesergeant wrote: post #219
rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

> A company that starts with nothing wouldn't be a GmbH (limited liability company), it would be a GoH (company without liability), and there's a good reason why those don't exist... What's the good reason? In the UK I can started a Ltd with £1 of share capital, about £100 of fees, and filling out a form online. I will be shielded from personal liability if it goes tits up unless I've broken the law, knowingly traded…

> In the UK I can started a Ltd with £1 of share capital, about £100 of fees, and filling out a form online. I will be shielded from personal liability if it goes tits up unless I've broken the law, knowingly traded insolvent, or otherwise been an idiot

That's what Germany calls an "UG". Which is what OP actually ends up doing.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#425

Post by pwinnski »

keiferski wrote: post #373
9dev wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that so? In Germany for example, you have a legal right to return anything you purchased via a remote means of communication - so e.g., the internet, or a phone call - free of charge, within two weeks, and it must be simple to do so; if a vendor tries to obfuscate how to cancel a purchase contract, you can simply write them an email.

yeah most US companies have return policies of 30 days or more, no questions asked.

The word "most" is doing a lot here. Europe guarantees consumer rights by law, while the US relies on companies adopting the practices voluntarily. Most do, but larger companies more universally than smaller, and it's by no means universal.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#426

Post by keiferski »

sandcat_ wrote: post #399
keiferski wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a false dichotomy. Consumer return policies, customer service, etc. tend to be much better in the US than in the EU. I would characterize it rather that the US is pro-business and pro-consumer, but somewhat anti-average worker.

That’s not true. From mandatory refunds when selling online, to capped credit card fees, to longer warranties, the EU is clearly better for consumer rights. Some US businesses have realized that openly screwing your customers isn’t good business practice, but they’re somewhat of the exception I hear (and a lot of those companies offer the same policies, or better, in the EU, e.g. Costco) Apple is another good example…

It seems to me that if there is some sort of law or regulation that can be passed, then that policy will be better in the EU. If the better service is a result of competition, then it will likely be better in the US.

In general though, culturally, the US is much more "the customer is always right", whereas in the EU, it's considered a hassle to cater to customers that much. This mentality translates across the economy as a whole.

At least that's in my experience of being American and living in the EU for the last 10 years.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#427

Post by keiferski »

echoangle wrote: post #419
keiferski wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if that matters much. Only the actual end result does. The better policies given by US companies is also likely driven by competition, so by definition they wouldn't be something that a government regulation could accomplish (other than to incentivize more competition.)

It does because for one you can go to court. If a company stops playing nice because they think you’re defrauding them if you tell them your package went missing during transit, company niceness doesn’t get you anything. (That’s a random example btw, I don’t know how this is handled legally in the US. The point is that there are situations where you actually want the law on your side).

Suing people and companies is a national pastime in America. I really don't think the EU has an advantage there...

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#428

Post by jobs_throwaway »

paulsutter wrote: post #391
Zak wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the impression the situations where that actually happens are at least arguably serious misconduct, and usually targeted at someone with significant assets. A construction company that pockets ten million dollars and doesn't build anything probably can't shield its owner this way, but a single-developer software consultancy that pockets ten thousand dollars and delivers buggy code can.

While extreme cases are the easiest to imagine, in real life the plaintiff almost always argues to pierce the veil and the defendant always argues the opposite, and both sides earnestly believe that they are right.

And in real life piercing the veil is extremely exceptional

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#429

Post by keiferski »

pwinnski wrote: post #425
keiferski wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah most US companies have return policies of 30 days or more, no questions asked.

The word "most" is doing a lot here. Europe guarantees consumer rights by law, while the US relies on companies adopting the practices voluntarily. Most do, but larger companies more universally than smaller, and it's by no means universal.

It's the reality for the vast majority of larger companies. Quibbling with word choice is really not a good argument.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#430

Post by steve1977 »

Archelaos wrote: post #195

The authors claim that he spent "9,600 euros to start a company" is misleading. Since he wants to reduce his liabiliy and therefore the risk of his customers as much as possible, he opted for a complex solution that involved founding two joined companies. In addition, he counted 2,000 € of shared capital as an expense, which it isn't. He did not opt for a "cheap" UG which requires no up-front capital, because of its…

I also had the impression that either we didn't get the full story or his law firm didn't really advise him very well.
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