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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

191–200 of 789 posts

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#191
post #51

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. > And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH The post itself explains exactly why the first complaint is a fallacy and the second one is tru…

Yeah, I found that part odd too.

Also, you can found a GmbH and only pay in 50% of the €25k. My understanding is that you're still personally liable for the rest, but it lowers the hurdle to founding a GmbH at least somewhat.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#192

> My first company, Freshflow, is valuable enough that walking out of Germany would trigger a massive six-figure exit tax, on gains I have not even realised, purely for the privilege of leaving. Without this "exit tax", every founder of a successful business would have a huge incentive to leave and to realize the gains elsewhere. It's not a tax for the privilige of leaving, but for the privilege of building a company…

A fourth alternative is to leave, and a fifth is to not start a company at all.

Now you understand why the USA deploys 3-4x the amount of VC capital compared to the EU. And prior to the current administration, entrepreneurs mostly wanted to get to the US.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#194
post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

The authors inability to understand this really makes wonder how much of the rest of their story is essentially self-inflicted.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#195
The authors claim that he spent "9,600 euros to start a company" is misleading. Since he wants to reduce his liabiliy and therefore the risk of his customers as much as possible, he opted for a complex solution that involved founding two joined companies.

In addition, he counted 2,000 € of shared capital as an expense, which it isn't. He did not opt for a "cheap" UG which requires no up-front capital, because of its bad reputation.

He also includes a bill for accounting software of 426.97 € into his calculation. This has nothing to do with founding costs, but are operational expenses.

As the author states that he set up the company through a law firm, I wonder which of the figures includes the cost of this service. To be fair, this should be listed separately, as such costs can vary widely or be omitted entirely if the company is incorporated solely through a notary.

Also the information about the minimum deposit when founding a GmbH is incomplete. He states: "A GmbH wants 25,000 euros sitting in a bank account before it is allowed to exist." Fact is that you need only deposit half of it upfront into the GmbH; you only have to deposit the rest of the money if the company is in trouble. The company can also immediately lend the deposit back to the founder at market rates. If the company’s articles of association permit it to hold shares in other companies, the company may also use the contributions to purchase shares or similar financial investments. His law firm should actually have advised him on this matter.

The main differences between a standard GmbH and a GmbH & Co KG lie in their somewhat different tax arrangements.

So all in all, the author paid 7,227.74 € to found a rather complex company structure. Judging by his reasoning, presumably for the wrong reasons.

When I found a GmbH in 2019 without the help of a law firm, it cost me about 2,000 euros (if I recall it correctly).

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#197

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. But it was his call. As the author has already pointed out, he could have started a sole proprietorship, but he did not want to take on that risk. The 25'000 is because it's not his risk if he starts a GmbH, it's the GmbH's r…

I can't verify if the author's attempts are even real tbh. Sounds like they were creating problems for themselves just to see how much it would cost to get sort them out. For a GmbH you also want to get an accountant and just delegate the whole process to people who can guide you before you hurt yourself.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#198
You have to savour the lack of self-awareness in this one.

> Founder chooses the most complex legal structure that's readily-available... and is surprised that this complexity comes with laywer and notary fees.

> Founder decides to incorporate a company with the name of a popular brand of kitchen rolls... and is surprised that it's too generic.

> After "weeks of correspondence" (and, I suppose, extensive research), founder decides to incorporate a company that's named the same as a Swedish online marketing company instead. Very distinctive. No risk of confusion, ever.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#199

Europe will suffocate under the weight of its own bureaucracy. The sad thing is that it is not new to me, I've heard so many stories like this one. This is the kind of friction that makes founders incorporate elsewhere. Also, a founder spending months coordinating lawyers banks and tax advisors is not talking to customers or building the product. The opportunity cost here is huge. Anyway, you are pretty close. One mo…

Germany is not EU though. Very different bureaucracy in different EU countries. Up to a point, EU doesn't add a single bit of bureaucracy to the stack. Only once you reach a certain limit you will have to enroll in an international VAT system, which is not too bad.

EDIT: Just re-read your message. I thought it said EU. But the point stands, Germany is not Europe either.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#200

I founded my Estonian company within 3 days, that includes when the court rejected the name because a similar name already existed. Everything was online.

The real problem becomes substance in Estonia? Residence, local director, office, ...
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