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Signs you're a dangerous terrorist: using Signal, moving zines

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Re: Signs you're a dangerous terrorist: using Signal, moving zines

#31

Post by armchairhacker »

Arodex wrote: post #23
armchairhacker wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Jan 6 rioters were convicted and given similarly long sentences. Certainly Trump doing something doesn’t make it valid.

Well, if he did it and there was no opposition, it certainly makes it "valid". Where exactly has it been made invalid? Has anyone done anything to make it invalid? Aren't they free, and can they do it again? And the slush fund for the Jan 6 rioters is just suspended, not canceled. It will come back.

Just because something happened doesn’t make it “valid”: it’s not moral, and your side doing it may not have the same effect (good people can’t use evil tools as effectively as evil people).

I don’t really care whether Jan 6 rioters are free, they’ve spent months-to-years in jail anyways. What’s important is preventing future crimes, which punishing deserved people broadly on your side helps.

> Can they do it again

In 2028 if a Dem wins? At best they’re looking at another few years. (Trump won’t successfully pardon a crime as egregious as this (before anyone serves time) unless the Dem is really ineffective, because of how similarly it can be used against his side.)

Re: Signs you're a dangerous terrorist: using Signal, moving zines

#32

Post by hughw »

Nobody's talking about how "terrorism" has expanded to mean, in law, armed opposition the the government. Throw in terrorism and the sentence goes up dramatically.

Is it possible to oppose the government with arms yet not be a terrorist? I'd say, yes. But I never expect to see a prosecution acknowledge that. They're even making drug smugglers into terrorists and murdering them extrajudicially.

Re: Signs you're a dangerous terrorist: using Signal, moving zines

#33

Post by soulofmischief »

JuniperMesos wrote: post #25

> Let’s be clear: a few of the protesters were out of bounds. One fired an AR-15 at the police, which goes beyond legitimate protest into inciting violence (and maybe even deliberate provocation). I would never condone that kind of activity. This is the crux of the issue - from the perspective of the government, this was a group of people who lead an armed terrorist attack on a government facility in order to disrupt…

The use of private communications absolutely, fundamentally, positively, holistically cannot be allowed to be recognized as "evidence" for anything, including planned violence, or we have lost the final fight and society is doomed forever.

Do not let your apathy be the tool of another man's evil.

Re: Signs you're a dangerous terrorist: using Signal, moving zines

#34

Post by Joker_vD »

Arodex wrote: post #10
copper-float wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If you want a discussion, here it is: >this kind of behavior can't be normalized What happened to the Jan 6 rioters? Ashli Babbitt received military funeral honors for what? Discuss: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” What is the intent of the 2nd amendment? It allows citizen…

> It allows citizens to beat arms, but for what purpose?

To form state-level militia. It even starts with a sunset condition: "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, ..." — so arguably, since a well-maintained militia is universally considered in no way necessary (nor sufficient) for state security, the second amendment should have lost its power long time ago.

Re: Signs you're a dangerous terrorist: using Signal, moving zines

#35

Post by stevenwoo »

hughw wrote: post #32

Nobody's talking about how "terrorism" has expanded to mean, in law, armed opposition the the government. Throw in terrorism and the sentence goes up dramatically. Is it possible to oppose the government with arms yet not be a terrorist? I'd say, yes. But I never expect to see a prosecution acknowledge that. They're even making drug smugglers into terrorists and murdering them extrajudicially.

Two of those people were not involved in any of the planning and discussion of weapons via Signal and still got 30 year sentences, for the magazines bit. The shooter claimed he only shot because he saw the officer shooting at the back of fleeing unarmed protestors - this type of law enforcement is frowned upon in most other countries but regularly happens unopposed in the USA and officers will claim and most of the time get qualified immunity. The whole prosecution feels of a kind of the misuse of laddering and felony murder charges.

Re: Signs you're a dangerous terrorist: using Signal, moving zines

#36

Post by mmonaghan »

stillvasals wrote: post #30
JuniperMesos wrote: post #25

> Let’s be clear: a few of the protesters were out of bounds. One fired an AR-15 at the police, which goes beyond legitimate protest into inciting violence (and maybe even deliberate provocation). I would never condone that kind of activity. This is the crux of the issue - from the perspective of the government, this was a group of people who lead an armed terrorist attack on a government facility in order to disrupt…

[flagged]

The country has changed massively through voting in the last 25 years. I would rather not change to a system where political groups attack others with guns and bombs to change things, because that's the alternative you're proposing.

Touch grass, find a significant other, and build a life.

Re: Signs you're a dangerous terrorist: using Signal, moving zines

#37

Post by ndiddy »

hughw wrote: post #32

Nobody's talking about how "terrorism" has expanded to mean, in law, armed opposition the the government. Throw in terrorism and the sentence goes up dramatically. Is it possible to oppose the government with arms yet not be a terrorist? I'd say, yes. But I never expect to see a prosecution acknowledge that. They're even making drug smugglers into terrorists and murdering them extrajudicially.

This is one of the great contradictions in American society. The right to bear arms is enshrined as a fundamental right in the Constitution, but the state will treat anybody who chooses to exercise this right as being an inherent threat. This is especially the case when it intersects with certain law enforcement practices, such as no-knock warrants. There have been multiple cases where police execute a no-knock warrant and kill someone who thinks they're being burglarized for holding a gun, or someone shoots at the police without knowing they're police and then gets charged with attempted murder of a law enforcement officer.

Re: Signs you're a dangerous terrorist: using Signal, moving zines

#38

Post by bArray »

This article is quite dishonest.

> Let’s be clear: a few of the protesters were out of bounds.

"out of bounds" is a nice way of putting it. Terrorism is an accurate description.

> But these sentences far outstrip anything that’s been given to anyone on the right wing: the leader of the Proud Boys, as this article notes, was sentenced to 22 years in prison.

I think the difference here is the planned terrorist activity, and condolence of violence. If the Proud Boys were doing to same sort of thing, then fair - but I cannot find in a Google search that they did.

> One protester wasn’t even present, but was sentenced to 30 years for moving some zines

> The ninth defendant, Daniel Sanchez-Estrada was not at the protest, but was convicted of corruptly concealing a document or record after prosecutors said he moved leftwing zines and other materials at the request of Rueda, his wife, after she was arrested.

Clearly it was not just "moving some vines", it was knowingly concealing evidence and attempting to prevent the course of justice.

> Instead, other “evidence” was used to infer that they planned violence, including this specific argument that should give everyone pause

An argument can be made there, all are innocent unless proven guilty. But I suspect they admitted to being fully aware and supportive of the terrorist activities. The prosecution can claim all they like, the important thing is what ends up being considered.

Re: Signs you're a dangerous terrorist: using Signal, moving zines

#39

Post by [deleted] »

arjie wrote: post #7

The sentences are pretty crazy but what’s with the strange understatement. > One fired an AR-15 at the police, which goes beyond legitimate protest into inciting violence (and maybe even deliberate provocation) The accurate statement is that he shot and wounded a police officer who he intentionally targeted according to his own testimony (where he claims he did so because he thought the cop was going to shoot his guy…

[deleted]

Re: Signs you're a dangerous terrorist: using Signal, moving zines

#40

Post by Goronmon »

copper-float wrote: post #9
arjie wrote: post #7

The sentences are pretty crazy but what’s with the strange understatement. > One fired an AR-15 at the police, which goes beyond legitimate protest into inciting violence (and maybe even deliberate provocation) The accurate statement is that he shot and wounded a police officer who he intentionally targeted according to his own testimony (where he claims he did so because he thought the cop was going to shoot his guy…

[flagged]

Careful, accurately portraying these people's crimes will likely get you downvoted and flagged, unfortunately. It's sad, but there's likely people here who support what happened.

This type of "you can't downvote me for valid reasons" style of intro to a comment is going to lead to many people downvoting you immediately.

Not many people are going to believe your appeal to "real discussion" when leading with that.

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