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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#131

Post by wongarsu »

ExpertAdvisor01 wrote: post #110
fifafu wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get the same in Germany with the much simpler GmbH or UG. GmbH & Co. KG is much more complex and mostly used to save some taxes in some scenarios. (However I absolutely agree that all of this is much too complicated and slow here in Germany)

In Germany you need a notary in the us you don't.

The notary adds about a week to the process (2-3 hours of your time, plus the time to wait for the appointment), and about $1000 (depends on how much money you put in the company). And for "standard" setups you can skip the lawyer and simply use the templates and "free" legal advice from the notary (free as in "included in the notary fee you have to pay anyways")

Yes, it's more involved than an online form. But in the grand scheme of things, a notary is neither a huge expense (the tax advisor will likely cost you more) nor a big time sink

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#132

Post by nopurpose »

robtro wrote: post #65

Germany is one of the worst countries when it comes to bureaucracy nothing is fast here if you go the legal path and stay within the law (which is mostly for small people big players have different ways) and as you see everything costs a lot so if you are founding a pure online business do yourself a favor and incorporate somewhere else and if you still live in Germany look into licensing or subcontracting yourself t…

Doesn't Germany have Controled Foreign Company rules?

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#133

Post by flopbob »

weinzierl wrote: post #126

Not to defend German bureaucracy but if you are serious and want results this is not how you do it. If you want a GmbH quickly there are specialized lawyers that maintain a pool of freshly founded GmbH's for you to buy. Everything is set up for you to start. If you don't like certain things like the company name, you can always change it later. That being said, I know plenty of people who founded their GmbH themselve…

Especially the combination of UG & Co KG. Never heard that one!

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#134

Post by Sweepi »

throwaway15805 wrote: post #101
Sweepi wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I am missing the point, but what is the alternative? You found a company in Germany, dont realize your gains, therefore dont pay taxes, then leave the country, realize your gains, and still dont pay taxes? Why should Germany or any other country allow this?

The issue is liquidity. The tax comes due as soon as you leave, but you might not be able to liquidate your shares quickly enough to be able to pay those taxes. Depending on how your company gets valued these can be eye-watering numbers. This is something you can solve with enough time, but if I get a job offer where I'm supposed to start in 2 months? Very inconvenient. (There are some ways to spread this out have th…

You own a company so valuable that the tax on selling it shares puts you in serious trouble, but you still need to a start "a job"? A Job that requires you to change your nationality/tax residency to a non EU-state?

Edit: Maybe I should give an example: Lets say you build up a company, your shares are worth ~100k, while you payed yourself a living salary of ~2k so you could pay rent and buy groceries but not much more, especially no savings. Now you get on offer to work in the US for 180k/a, you sigh "finally" and just want to move, but the German wants 30k Taxes on your unrealized ~100k capital gain before your leave - Is this the kind of situation you are referring to?

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#135

Post by florakel »

I don’t know the specifics but the OP chose a complicated setup. Why not just use a GmbH which is the equivalent to an Inc in the US? The capital requirement is 12500 in the bank not 25000 as stated. There are online services that run the whole process for you similar to Stripe Atlas. Even setting up a UG (with 1 euro stating capital) is very easy but you have to upgrade to a GmbH once you receive investment (investors usually demand it). For the whole process there are standard forms. You only need to pay lawyers if you want to personalize your setup.

Maybe OP was just not advised well which is surprising given the amount of information available online (startup guides for Germany)

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#136

Post by CodesInChaos »

preya2k wrote: post #66
earcar wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Stammkapital was required for the UG, and it's very much locked since the whole purpose of that is to take liability.

So for a UG it's a Kommanditeinlage. But it doesn't change the fact that you can spend this money for business purposes. You just can't wire it back to yourself or pay it to yourself as a wage. Feel free to buy office furniture or company devices with it. It's a common misunderstanding that this money needs to be reserved somewhere for liability purposes. That's not correct. You can spend it, both in a GmbH as well a…

According to the article you linked, it can be used to pay yourself a wage, as long as it's not excessive.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#137

Post by CPLX »

mattashii wrote: post #30
drstewart wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don't think it's that different from pointing out that registering and/or operating a company in e.g. Delaware or Texas is a very different experience from doing so in New York.

Kind of a tangent, but as someone who's done both, registering in Delaware versus New York is actually basically the same process.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#138

Post by stivatron »

bcjdjsndon wrote: post #116

You're discovering the global financial system is primarily for the rich, and not wage slaves like us. Free to those who can afford it

Its always the caste lobbying for regulations "for the good of all" that break countries apart. My country's (Argentina) largest political party lives on by heavy corporativism, otherwise they would have been booted a long time ago.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#139

Post by earcar »

Aurornis wrote: post #95
mpweiher wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, what you are doing is complicated. I did a GmbH with "Musterprotokolle" so virtually no lawyer fees and quick and easy to set up. And a GmbH is limited liability. It's in the name. Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung . GmbH. The Geschäftsführer is liable for certain (avoidable) things in either case. The difference is that that the Co KG can be taxed like a "Personengesellschaft". So you wanted to optimize tax…

> But then don't moan about it being complicated. It was your choice. I don’t understand why you’re deriding someone for explaining why establishing a common business structure is slow and complicated. The fact that a less advantageous business structure is available faster, but with significant tradeoffs, does not diminish the problems with this business structure.

Well said!

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#140

Post by sscaryterry »

Oras wrote: post #63
lbriner wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does bring its own share of problems. 1000s of companies are registered in the UK with literally no checks. No address checking so people just pick a random address to register from the phone book! When it comes to tax issues etc. it turns out the company registration is meaningless. The sweet spot has to be somewhere in the middle. Starting a company shouldn't be something you expect to do in a day but it also…

There is an identity and address checks now in the UK. Even banks are required to validate now, had my bank asking me to validate details even when i have my business for 6 years, same company, same address, and same bank account.

Yep, and it can get quite tedious.
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